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COMMENT: Brown right to let MPs vote freely
IT'S easy to see why sections of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill have aroused strong opinions on both sides in recent weeks.
In one corner are those who say that the Bill's most controversial proposal, to allow scientists to combine animal and human DNA, is a monstrous, Frankenstein-esque attempt to meddle with the building blocks of life.
Opposing them are those who argue that such experiments provide the best hope for real breakthroughs in the battle to cure diseases such as Alzheimer's and Parkinson's, which cause so much human misery.
These are emotive issues that go beyond ordinary party politics.
That is why we have seen religious leaders, especially from the Catholic church, weigh in to the debate.
And that is why Gordon Brown's decision to allow MPs to vote freely on the three most contentious sections of the Bill was the right one.
It is not certain whether this is simply an astute piece of realpolitik on the part of Brown, eager to avoid the embarassment of seeing Catholic MPs deserting the Labour fold, or a recognition that there are important ethical issues here that should not be subject to the
three-line whip.
Either way, MPs will have the freedom to vote according to their consciences on this important issue, and that is to be welcomed.
8:09am Wednesday 26th March 2008
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CommentPosted by: Logik, worcester on 9:50am Wed 26 Mar 08
[quote][bold]It is not certain whether this is simply an astute piece of realpolitik on the part of Brown[/bold] , eager to avoid the embarassment of seeing Catholic MPs deserting the Labour fold[/quote]
Oh yes it is!! Pity he wasn't so free with the referendum vote.
It is not certain whether this is simply an astute piece of realpolitik on the part of Brown , eager to avoid the embarassment of seeing Catholic MPs deserting the Labour fold
Oh yes it is!! Pity he wasn't so free with the referendum vote.
Posted by: Alan2, Worcester on 11:26am Wed 26 Mar 08
Brown does nothing which is not good for Brown or the Labour Party. Don't be fooled that his fathers "moral compass" influenced his decision to allow a free vote, what influenced it was a catastrophe arising in his cabinet if he didn't.
With diabetes endemic in my extended family, a brother with Parkinson's, a sister in law with Alzheimers I still say (and they do) that this is a disgusting issue, thought up by scientists who would have been more at home in Auschwitz or Buchenwald. It has no place in a "civilised" world but do we hear the Anglican Church in the shape of the pseudo Sharia/Archbishop of Canterbury having a say on it, no, of course we don't, it's to controversial and, in simple terms he just hasn't got the bottle.
Brown does nothing which is not good for Brown or the Labour Party. Don't be fooled that his fathers "moral compass" influenced his decision to allow a free vote, what influenced it was a catastrophe arising in his cabinet if he didn't.
With diabetes endemic in my extended family, a brother with Parkinson's, a sister in law with Alzheimers I still say (and they do) that this is a disgusting issue, thought up by scientists who would have been more at home in Auschwitz or Buchenwald. It has no place in a "civilised" world but do we hear the Anglican Church in the shape of the pseudo Sharia/Archbishop of Canterbury having a say on it, no, of course we don't, it's to controversial and, in simple terms he just hasn't got the bottle.
Posted by: Alan2, Worcester on 11:41am Wed 26 Mar 08
PS - I have just read that Michael Foster MP is a Roman Catholic and he is minded to vote for the bill, certainly he is not going to be influenced by his Churche's position then. No, Gordon Brown will be conducting the service, his Ministers will be singing from the same hymn sheet in the choir and his party will be knealing at the leaders feet in adulation with our Mr Foster leading the servile obedience to him on high. Shame on them.
What can we expect from a party whip.
PS - I have just read that Michael Foster MP is a Roman Catholic and he is minded to vote for the bill, certainly he is not going to be influenced by his Churche's position then. No, Gordon Brown will be conducting the service, his Ministers will be singing from the same hymn sheet in the choir and his party will be knealing at the leaders feet in adulation with our Mr Foster leading the servile obedience to him on high. Shame on them.
What can we expect from a party whip.
Posted by: molcat, worcester on 1:18pm Wed 26 Mar 08
As usual we see Logik & Alan2 having a pop at the government over any issue that arises. I'm no fan of New Labour or Mike Foster for that matter, but if Mr Foster puts reality before the insane doctrines of the Catholic church he may certainly be in with an outside chance of winning back my vote. When it comes to it's views on advances in science the Catholic church hasn't moved on a lot since the days of the Spanish Inquisition. Science is real, people have never been able to perform miracles, there is no big magic bloke hiding above the clouds watching everything we do. Scientists will improve the health and future of mankind and those who rely on prayer will get nothing but sore knees - but no doubt they'll head of to a doctor for help!
As usual we see Logik & Alan2 having a pop at the government over any issue that arises. I'm no fan of New Labour or Mike Foster for that matter, but if Mr Foster puts reality before the insane doctrines of the Catholic church he may certainly be in with an outside chance of winning back my vote. When it comes to it's views on advances in science the Catholic church hasn't moved on a lot since the days of the Spanish Inquisition. Science is real, people have never been able to perform miracles, there is no big magic bloke hiding above the clouds watching everything we do. Scientists will improve the health and future of mankind and those who rely on prayer will get nothing but sore knees - but no doubt they'll head of to a doctor for help!
Posted by: Alan2, Worcester on 2:27pm Wed 26 Mar 08
Molcat, I have every respect for your opposite view to myself. No problem. That is what the world is all about.
I am not against this merely because the RC Church is, I am against it because my conscience and my very being is. I mentioned the RC Church because they don't sit on the fence. We have had nothing but silence from the Anglicans on an issue as important as this - what are they doing - still thinking about it.
I also have no time for Politicians whos'e overiding motivation in the House is not their consience, or what is right or wrong but what is right for the party, it's unity and safeguarding the power of the government. If your vote can be swung in favour of those who indulge in these sort of tactics, fine. If your principles match theirs who am I to complain - I don't, it's you that has to live with yourself.
Mankind must have checks and balances to save itself from itself, thank god that there are those who attempt to keep the scientists in check.
With the creeping proliferation of nuclear and biolological weapons, scientists have done the world a great favour haven't they.
Molcat, I have every respect for your opposite view to myself. No problem. That is what the world is all about.
I am not against this merely because the RC Church is, I am against it because my conscience and my very being is. I mentioned the RC Church because they don't sit on the fence. We have had nothing but silence from the Anglicans on an issue as important as this - what are they doing - still thinking about it.
I also have no time for Politicians whos'e overiding motivation in the House is not their consience, or what is right or wrong but what is right for the party, it's unity and safeguarding the power of the government. If your vote can be swung in favour of those who indulge in these sort of tactics, fine. If your principles match theirs who am I to complain - I don't, it's you that has to live with yourself.
Mankind must have checks and balances to save itself from itself, thank god that there are those who attempt to keep the scientists in check.
With the creeping proliferation of nuclear and biolological weapons, scientists have done the world a great favour haven't they.
Posted by: Stan Parr, Pershore on 2:55pm Wed 26 Mar 08
Interesting!
Just in passing and while on the topic - does anybody happen to know:
1) How many MPs are Scots?
2) How many MPs are Catholic?
3) Are there ANY English Protestant MPs?
I've often wondered - not that it really matters, the real orders now come from Brussels anyway.
Interesting!
Just in passing and while on the topic - does anybody happen to know:
1) How many MPs are Scots?
2) How many MPs are Catholic?
3) Are there ANY English Protestant MPs?
I've often wondered - not that it really matters, the real orders now come from Brussels anyway.
Posted by: Logik, worcester on 3:02pm Wed 26 Mar 08
Molecat, I don't just knock this Labour government, I do the same to the Conservatives and Liberals when I believe it is warranted.
Mr Foster putting the issue in front of the insane doctrines of the Catholic Church, he is surely a part of that insane doctrine being a RC himself.
As for my original comment, that stands and is so blatantly obvious that you would have to be blind, deaf and totally stupid not to realise Gordon's motives.
So Mr Foster is a catholic. Whilst other catholic MP's, some of those prominent ministers, have difficulty in balancing their consciences, Mr Foster does not appear to be in the same predicament and seems to be abandoning his beliefs in favour of his party.
Most of us go through life and our conscience gets in the way from time to time, but we follow it nonetheless in the belief we are doing the right thing whatever that may be. Mr Foster however does seem to be going completely against not only in what his church believes, but also some of his Labour cabinet colleagues who find themselves in a similar predicament but nonetheless, are prepared to vote with their consciences. My view is that there is something not quite right about abandoning your principles, which seems to come quite readily to our astute MP.
I am not religious at all and as for the issue itself, I agree, we do need to progress to try to find cures for some of these terrible illnesses, but likewise, we do also need to keep a check on just how far we should go. Incidentally, I voted Yes in today's poll
Molcat, I suspect that Mr Foster is delighted that he can win your vote back on such an issue and all he had to do was to sell out presumably his own and his churches beliefs in favour of his own Labour party.
Molecat, I don't just knock this Labour government, I do the same to the Conservatives and Liberals when I believe it is warranted.
Mr Foster putting the issue in front of the insane doctrines of the Catholic Church, he is surely a part of that insane doctrine being a RC himself.
As for my original comment, that stands and is so blatantly obvious that you would have to be blind, deaf and totally stupid not to realise Gordon's motives.
So Mr Foster is a catholic. Whilst other catholic MP's, some of those prominent ministers, have difficulty in balancing their consciences, Mr Foster does not appear to be in the same predicament and seems to be abandoning his beliefs in favour of his party.
Most of us go through life and our conscience gets in the way from time to time, but we follow it nonetheless in the belief we are doing the right thing whatever that may be. Mr Foster however does seem to be going completely against not only in what his church believes, but also some of his Labour cabinet colleagues who find themselves in a similar predicament but nonetheless, are prepared to vote with their consciences. My view is that there is something not quite right about abandoning your principles, which seems to come quite readily to our astute MP.
I am not religious at all and as for the issue itself, I agree, we do need to progress to try to find cures for some of these terrible illnesses, but likewise, we do also need to keep a check on just how far we should go. Incidentally, I voted Yes in today's poll
Molcat, I suspect that Mr Foster is delighted that he can win your vote back on such an issue and all he had to do was to sell out presumably his own and his churches beliefs in favour of his own Labour party.
Posted by: Harry Wilson, Worcestershire on 3:58pm Wed 26 Mar 08
Logik and Alan2 the original story does not say Mr Foster is a catholic, only his family are. Says something about your prejudice towards him.
Logik and Alan2 the original story does not say Mr Foster is a catholic, only his family are. Says something about your prejudice towards him.
Posted by: Alan2, Worcester on 5:30pm Wed 26 Mar 08
Harry, I concede your point but we shouldn't get to distracted by religion in this issue neither should we split hairs.
The underlying position I was trying to make was that irrespective of what any surrounding facts or circumstances are involved, Mr Fosters blind loyalty to the party and the Prime Minister will come before anything else. This is an issue that most people will find very difficult to reconcile with their views be they for or against, I thought about my position very hard. He doesn't have to think, he merely follows the pack.
And yes Harry, I regard myself as having a modicum of intelligence, that's why I have an admitted prejudice when it comes to Mr Foster and New Labour.
After 10 years of ruination, I see nothing good in either of them.
Harry, I concede your point but we shouldn't get to distracted by religion in this issue neither should we split hairs.
The underlying position I was trying to make was that irrespective of what any surrounding facts or circumstances are involved, Mr Fosters blind loyalty to the party and the Prime Minister will come before anything else. This is an issue that most people will find very difficult to reconcile with their views be they for or against, I thought about my position very hard. He doesn't have to think, he merely follows the pack.
And yes Harry, I regard myself as having a modicum of intelligence, that's why I have an admitted prejudice when it comes to Mr Foster and New Labour.
After 10 years of ruination, I see nothing good in either of them.
Posted by: molcat, worcester on 6:24pm Wed 26 Mar 08
Logik and Alan2, you both come across on here as intelligent people - I really do find it hard believe that you would be so naive to think that all politicians from all leanings don't vote along party lines on most issues! That's the way party politics works - it certainly ain't perfect, but it's the best we're going to get. I doubt very much that you would be so vocal if the system you abhor so much was controlled by a majority with the same political view as yourselves and were using the party whip to ensure everyone voted for your beliefs (which is blatantly not being done in this case!).
If Mike Foster is Catholic, like most of them I expect he was merely unfortunate enough to be born into it, I would hope he is intelligent enough to realise that it is all a load of superstitious nonsense and it should have no bearing on how he votes on important issues.
No religion stands up to close examination - all the major religions are based on teachings of simplistic people who lived thousands of years ago. These people knew nothing about anything beyond their own small world. They knew nothing of science, many died at an early age of minor complaints and illnesses that scientists have now cured. Where was their god when their children were dying of small pox? Why didn't their god tell them how to invent insecticide to get rid of all those plagues of locusts? If my car broke down I wouldn't look for the bible for a way to fix it and I certainly doubt if hidden in the text somewhere is the design for a non-polluting super car of the future. In the same way if my body breaks I'll head to a doctor to be fixed and I look forward to scientists and doctors to invent fantastic cures in the future that will save and improve the lives of millions. The bible is not going to produce a cure for Parkinson’s Disease! There is absolutely no place for religion in the governing and law making of a modern secular society - particularly with the amount of diverse cultures in Britain we have no choice but to have secular governance. The Archbishop of Canterbury’s comments on Sharia law recently should prove that point! It probably explains why they are largely leaving the Catholics to rant alone on this issue.
This isn’t “Frankenstein Science” – it’s just something that could make a real difference to people’s lives. The body naturally aborts the majority of foetuses. Those foetuses are made up of DNA. Animals are made up of DNA. Why does it matter where the foetuses or the DNA comes from? Why is using DNA from these two sources (neither of which created a mature sentient human) immoral? Whereas refusing to try to find cures for illnesses (i.e. deliberately letting people die) is morally justified. I’m thankful that us atheist actually have morals, unlike many religious people!
Logik and Alan2, you both come across on here as intelligent people - I really do find it hard believe that you would be so naive to think that all politicians from all leanings don't vote along party lines on most issues! That's the way party politics works - it certainly ain't perfect, but it's the best we're going to get. I doubt very much that you would be so vocal if the system you abhor so much was controlled by a majority with the same political view as yourselves and were using the party whip to ensure everyone voted for your beliefs (which is blatantly not being done in this case!).
If Mike Foster is Catholic, like most of them I expect he was merely unfortunate enough to be born into it, I would hope he is intelligent enough to realise that it is all a load of superstitious nonsense and it should have no bearing on how he votes on important issues.
No religion stands up to close examination - all the major religions are based on teachings of simplistic people who lived thousands of years ago. These people knew nothing about anything beyond their own small world. They knew nothing of science, many died at an early age of minor complaints and illnesses that scientists have now cured. Where was their god when their children were dying of small pox? Why didn't their god tell them how to invent insecticide to get rid of all those plagues of locusts? If my car broke down I wouldn't look for the bible for a way to fix it and I certainly doubt if hidden in the text somewhere is the design for a non-polluting super car of the future. In the same way if my body breaks I'll head to a doctor to be fixed and I look forward to scientists and doctors to invent fantastic cures in the future that will save and improve the lives of millions. The bible is not going to produce a cure for Parkinson’s Disease! There is absolutely no place for religion in the governing and law making of a modern secular society - particularly with the amount of diverse cultures in Britain we have no choice but to have secular governance. The Archbishop of Canterbury’s comments on Sharia law recently should prove that point! It probably explains why they are largely leaving the Catholics to rant alone on this issue.
This isn’t “Frankenstein Science” – it’s just something that could make a real difference to people’s lives. The body naturally aborts the majority of foetuses. Those foetuses are made up of DNA. Animals are made up of DNA. Why does it matter where the foetuses or the DNA comes from? Why is using DNA from these two sources (neither of which created a mature sentient human) immoral? Whereas refusing to try to find cures for illnesses (i.e. deliberately letting people die) is morally justified. I’m thankful that us atheist actually have morals, unlike many religious people!
Posted by: Logik, worcester on 6:56pm Wed 26 Mar 08
[quote]I really do find it hard believe that you would be so naive to think that all politicians from all leanings don't vote along party lines on most issues![/quote]
I am not naive and I would not disagree that most politicians vote along party lines.
The truth is, whatever colour they wear it that they are all the same these days.
Unfortunately Molcat, your comment on this his how the party system works is very true and that is part of the problem. Having said that parliament is to be reduced to that of just rubber stamping what Brussels wants anyway.
There was to be a three line whip on this issue until Gordon realised he may lose some prominent cabinet members.
I have to say, I am starting to wonder about all the fuss. If they discover a cure for anything, the NHS won't be able to afford it anyway so it all seems pretty pointless.
I really do find it hard believe that you would be so naive to think that all politicians from all leanings don't vote along party lines on most issues!
I am not naive and I would not disagree that most politicians vote along party lines.
The truth is, whatever colour they wear it that they are all the same these days.
Unfortunately Molcat, your comment on this his how the party system works is very true and that is part of the problem. Having said that parliament is to be reduced to that of just rubber stamping what Brussels wants anyway.
There was to be a three line whip on this issue until Gordon realised he may lose some prominent cabinet members.
I have to say, I am starting to wonder about all the fuss. If they discover a cure for anything, the NHS won't be able to afford it anyway so it all seems pretty pointless.
Posted by: Alan2, Worcester on 7:29pm Wed 26 Mar 08
I really think you are making to much of the religious issue Molcat and not being an over religious animal myself, far be it for me to start quoting it to justify my feelings with regard to this. I wouldn't know where to start. I do know what my conscience tells me however.
Whether you like it or not though, it was religion that was behind Brown removing the whip on specific issues, if he had forced the Minister for Transport, Defence Minister and Minister for Wales to vote with the whip - he would have been down 3 Cabinet Ministers and possibly many more small fry.
Tight controls must be kept on scientists and I don't know what they would be from your stance neither am I sure what the source of all the morals are from an atheistic view point.
As a matter of interest, if you wish to become aware of what scientists get up to when all form of social, moral, religious or ethical influences are removed from their oversight then I suggest you read the in-depth report on the Japanese Army Unit 731. These were scientists, they thought that they were doing nothing wrong. they thought that they were advancing science and knowledge and they thought that their calling was honourable. It took War Crimes trials and a few hangings to show them that it wasn't.
Now you will come back and say " you are mad, our scientists are not like that, they are western, civilised, brilliantly educated people". Sorry Molcat, the Japanese probably said that as well.
Scientists cannot be trusted to merrilly go their own way without some checks and our countries religions are just one of them, no more, no less.
I really think you are making to much of the religious issue Molcat and not being an over religious animal myself, far be it for me to start quoting it to justify my feelings with regard to this. I wouldn't know where to start. I do know what my conscience tells me however.
Whether you like it or not though, it was religion that was behind Brown removing the whip on specific issues, if he had forced the Minister for Transport, Defence Minister and Minister for Wales to vote with the whip - he would have been down 3 Cabinet Ministers and possibly many more small fry.
Tight controls must be kept on scientists and I don't know what they would be from your stance neither am I sure what the source of all the morals are from an atheistic view point.
As a matter of interest, if you wish to become aware of what scientists get up to when all form of social, moral, religious or ethical influences are removed from their oversight then I suggest you read the in-depth report on the Japanese Army Unit 731. These were scientists, they thought that they were doing nothing wrong. they thought that they were advancing science and knowledge and they thought that their calling was honourable. It took War Crimes trials and a few hangings to show them that it wasn't.
Now you will come back and say " you are mad, our scientists are not like that, they are western, civilised, brilliantly educated people". Sorry Molcat, the Japanese probably said that as well.
Scientists cannot be trusted to merrilly go their own way without some checks and our countries religions are just one of them, no more, no less.
Posted by: molcat, worcester on 8:00pm Wed 26 Mar 08
The luddites against this bill are largely objecting to it on morals rooted in whatever religious doctine they believe in. So it probablt the key source of objection to this bill. Basing scientific research on religious belief would get us nowhere and be extremely dangerous. Say for example our scientists livid in totalitarian fascist/ quasi-regilious state headed by a self proclaimed god, then I would have grave concerns about what scientist working for that state were up to. We don't live in anything like that sort of society & thanks largely to a terrible weapon called atom bomb invented by clever scientists working on our side, neither do the Japanese any longer. The very reason this debate is going on is that we DO have checks on our scientists. That's what this bill is about!!!!
As an atheist, Alan2,my morals come from what is right for mankind, they come out of an inate sense of what is right & what is wrong & importantly those morals change over time as society & science advances, unlike some religious based morals that are stuck in backward doctrines of the past.
The luddites against this bill are largely objecting to it on morals rooted in whatever religious doctine they believe in. So it probablt the key source of objection to this bill. Basing scientific research on religious belief would get us nowhere and be extremely dangerous. Say for example our scientists livid in totalitarian fascist/ quasi-regilious state headed by a self proclaimed god, then I would have grave concerns about what scientist working for that state were up to. We don't live in anything like that sort of society & thanks largely to a terrible weapon called atom bomb invented by clever scientists working on our side, neither do the Japanese any longer. The very reason this debate is going on is that we DO have checks on our scientists. That's what this bill is about!!!!
As an atheist, Alan2,my morals come from what is right for mankind, they come out of an inate sense of what is right & what is wrong & importantly those morals change over time as society & science advances, unlike some religious based morals that are stuck in backward doctrines of the past.
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