BALLOT: Whitehaven killings - time for a gun law change? (From Worcester News)
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BALLOT: Whitehaven killings - time for a gun law change?
10:43am Thursday 3rd June 2010 in
AS the horrific news of yesterday's mass murder in Cumbria begins to sink in, the inevitable question about gun laws is starting to be asked.
Police in Whitehaven, investigating the slaying of 12 people in the area, say that killer Derrick Bird was registered to hold firearms.
Little more has come out about the circumstances of how or why the taxi driver held a gun licence, but it begs the question about the criteria used to permit people to hold such deadly weapons.
The 1966 Firearms Act was strengthened in 1988 following the 1987 Hungerford massacre and it was toughened-up again in 1997 after Thomas Hamilton's killing spree at a school in Dunblane.
But is this latest killing spree - a rare event, it has to be said - justification enough to get even tougher?
Would an outright ban on all firearms be a workable law? Is it possible to legislate against a person like Derrick Bird, bearing in mind he was such a "lovely man" to many?
What is the answer?
Please take a second to vote in our ballot and share any thoughts you have in the comment box below.
Comments(49)
Hymie
says...
12:26pm Thu 3 Jun 10
I know farmers who are licenced for shootguns who drink to extreme and need very little to tip them over the edge.
Remove guns and we all will be safer.
Drico
says...
1:50pm Thu 3 Jun 10
.
It is right that gun laws and enforcement are reviewed, revised, and strengthened, but I am not sure that a total ban is the answer.
.
I don't want to undermine this tragedy in any way but just to play Devil's Advocate: if a similar tragedy had occurred in which somebody had gone on a rampage in their car and run over a number of people, would we be calling for a total ban on cars?
.
Sadly, we can never safeguard against every possible tragedy that could take place. Again, my condolences to everybody involved.
Dereck
says...
4:46pm Thu 3 Jun 10
zx12r
says...
5:13pm Thu 3 Jun 10
New Kid on the Block
says...
5:40pm Thu 3 Jun 10
It is not uncommon for people to own legally licensed guns.
There are a million people in this country who shoot not just a few as many people believe.
There will no doubt be calls for all licensed weapons to be stored at centralised points. This would be a logistical nightmare and would also create a very tempting target for criminals who wish to steal guns and ammunition for criminal purposes.
As things stand we have one of the strictest licensing systems in the world along with strict requirements on gun storage.
I am not going to suggest that we shouldn't examine the licensing process carefully but we must not jump to conclusions. It would be very easy to end up with a system that is less safe than the current one.
Dereck
says...
5:46pm Thu 3 Jun 10
helen donovan
says...
6:16pm Thu 3 Jun 10
I don't think anyone but the police and armed forces should have legal access to guns, but someone with a criminal record???????
helen donovan
says...
6:19pm Thu 3 Jun 10
This man used a "legally" owned weapon to deliberately entice people to him and then shoot them in the face.
He should never have been allowed the weapons or the licence!
Jabbadad
says...
8:06am Fri 4 Jun 10
Judi Hewitt
says...
9:30am Fri 4 Jun 10
There is no reason whatsoever for people other than the police and armed forces to use them.
Killing animals for fun is just one step away from turning the gun on people. Violence is violence whether it's perpetrated towards people or animals.
All the 'massacres' in this country so far, have been by shot gun licence holders, not criminals. Why can't you people see that? Or is bloodlust so deeply instilled inside you all that you can't let go of them?
If you live by the gun as this and some other countries do, then you must expect that many will die by them too.
I doubt most of the victims families will agree with people keeping shot guns and high powered rifle's at home.
Biggles
says...
10:21am Fri 4 Jun 10
helen donovan wrote:In your "opinion" only.
And there is no reason on the planet for anyone in this country to own a semi automatic hunting rifle with a telescopic range. This man used a "legally" owned weapon to deliberately entice people to him and then shoot them in the face. He should never have been allowed the weapons or the licence!
.
I am not a "shooter", I have no intention of ever becoming one.
.
You , along with some others, do seem intent on limiting peoples choices of what they can do.
.
What else would the "world according to Helen" ban ?
.
Aren't you the lady that led the campaign to get those hideous bunds put up alongside the river ?
.
If you are that lady, a lot of people were against that, myself included, but you whinged enough to win.
.
Perhaps you will be succesful with your presnt stance, but remember, one day somebody will pick on something that affects you.
.
Look at the rules of who you allow to legally hold these weapons by all means, tighten them if you wish, but I'd suggest a minor criminal record for theft is a poor reason to give, a record for armed robbery or mental illness is a little different.
.
Prohibition seems, over the years, to cause more problems than it solves
helen donovan
says...
12:56pm Fri 4 Jun 10
No I'm not. I have nothing to do with the river.
The comments I made were "my opinion". Pardon me I thought thats what we were all entitled to do.
I respect your opinion, albeit different from my own, and am asking you to do the same.
Dereck
says...
2:57pm Fri 4 Jun 10
You where spot on about the hunting rifle. An item completly out of place in this country which may be suitable to kill rino but why Bird or any one should have been allowed to own such an lethal weapon in this country is hard to comprehend. ( I understand that he inherited the rifle from his
father).
Dereck
says...
2:57pm Fri 4 Jun 10
You where spot on about the hunting rifle. An item completly out of place in this country which may be suitable to kill rino but why Bird or any one should have been allowed to own such an lethal weapon in this country is hard to comprehend. ( I understand that he inherited the rifle from his
father).
Biggles
says...
3:38pm Fri 4 Jun 10
Dereck wrote:Which part of "because he wanted to, and could, legally", has escaped your attention ?
Well said Helen. You where spot on about the hunting rifle. An item completly out of place in this country which may be suitable to kill rino but why Bird or any one should have been allowed to own such an lethal weapon in this country is hard to comprehend. ( I understand that he inherited the rifle from his father).
.
Who are any of us to say he shouldn't ........ providing he satisfies the licensing requirements ?
helen donovan
says...
5:19pm Fri 4 Jun 10
I would have thought after this weeks horrendous events that it would be blindingly obvious!
Biggles
says...
5:35pm Fri 4 Jun 10
.
So, using the "hindsight fairy", please enlighten me as to what could have been done.
.
As I can see it a chap has satisfied the licensing requirements to hold a particular weapon (please remember that I don't wish to hold any weapon).
.
This human being has had some sort of breakdown,( I guess), and has gone absolutely beserk with this weapon, killing lots of innocent people, and of course himself, please don't forget he took his own life as well.
.
So, all laws satisfied, how could it have been prevented ?
Worcesterman
says...
6:41pm Fri 4 Jun 10
Your comments are a bit different on the other site(Total ban on guns is not the answer) I kept wondering where you popped off to.
I have one answer to that, Ban everything, then you will be happy.
helen donovan
says...
6:52pm Fri 4 Jun 10
Biggles
says...
11:38pm Fri 4 Jun 10
helen donovan wrote:We don't have a labour government anymore, thank goodness, so good luck with your efforts.
From him not legally being able to keep a semi automatic, long range, telescopic range hunting rifle in his house.
.
Although I rather hope you aren't succesful
helen donovan
says...
12:44pm Sat 5 Jun 10
I never said I was trying to personally ban guns, I said that I think they should be banned. That's just my personal opinion.
Worcesterman
says...
1:26pm Sat 5 Jun 10
Worcesterman
says...
1:27pm Sat 5 Jun 10
New Kid on the Block
says...
6:32pm Sat 5 Jun 10
Judi Hewitt from Rhyl says...
"The only people voting to keep guns on this site are obviously shooters."
Read the comments and you will soon see that this is incorrect.
She also says
"All the 'massacres' in this country so far, have been by shot gun licence holders, not criminals."
Again incorrect
Thomas Hamilton was armed with pistols. Michael Ryan used with a pistol and 2 rifles of a type that are now banned.
There are reports of people being killed by criminals with illegal weapons on an almost weekly basis both in the papers and on television.
Probably the most prolific serial killer ever, responsible for up to 260 deaths, was a Doctor who certainly had no need of a gun to commit his crimes.
Hymie
says...
6:56pm Sat 5 Jun 10
What is wrong with guns having to be kept at gun club premises rather than in home surrounding where they are not always locked away as they should be ? On the rifle new kid is wrong as the rifle held by Bird was over 4 feet long and was a foreign hunting rifle that came to Bird from his Fathers Estate. Not for small game
More suited to deer culling or as used by Bird - to kill humans.
New Kid on the Block
says...
11:35am Sun 6 Jun 10
As I have already said on another part of this site storing well in excess of a milliion guns and the associated ammunition at gun clubs would be a logistical nightmare.
Also would you be willing to take the key home with you? Imagine how attractive that key would be to organised criminals and the lengths they would go to to get it.
If the rifle was legally held and semi automatic it was no larger than a .22 calibre rimfire weapon which is illegal to use for deer culling and certainly not as Dereck claimed "something suitable to kill Rhino". Centrefire semi auto weapons are banned by law in this country no matter what their origin.
I fail completely to see the relevance of the fact that the gun may not have been english made or how long it was.
Dereck
says...
2:37pm Sun 6 Jun 10
Worcesterman
says...
3:27pm Sun 6 Jun 10
You hope to God that chemical warfare never becomes a pastime.
Well at least it wont be a gun will it?.
Its silly to say that he was unfit to hold a gun licence, how on earth do you check to see if he was fit?
The police would not have given him a gun licence, if they thought he was loopy.
Its already been stated that, guns do not kill, but the person doing the killing, cannot you understand that?
What do you want to happen, that every gun owner go to the police station once a week, and subject themselves to a psychiatric test, to make sure they don't blow their top?
You will probably say not if they are kept in a gun club, then whats to stop them shooting a few members
if they had a bad moment, like missing their bullseye.
You both have got to realise, as to what happened, it did just that, and it will happen again, and again, and there is nothing you or I can do about it.
And all the laws in the land, will not stop it, and who knows your, chemical warfare, might just happen,
and then what will it be, Ban all chemicals?. It won't be long before you want to ban breathing.
Hymie
says...
4:21pm Sun 6 Jun 10
You have made your points and thank you for reading dereck and my postings also.
No doubt if any of us has anything fresh to say on the subject we will read it here.
helen donovan
says...
4:52pm Sun 6 Jun 10
Its silly to say that he was unfit to hold a gun licence, how on earth do you check to see if he was fit?"
You can't. So take the guns away from people who have no need to have them in the first place.
Taxi drivers don't need a long range automatic rifle with a 2 mile telescopic sight on it. I don't care if it spoils his "hobby" or not.
Only a person with an unhealthy interest in weaponry and or doing others great harm would want one in the first place.
It's about time we started thinking about the rights of the many victims instead of inconveniencing the gun owners.
When a 22 year old woman, holidaying with her boyfriend, gets part of her face blown away at close range, whilst being told "have a nice day" by some grudge bearing deranged evil nutjob she doesn't even know, and 12 people lose their lives, not to mention another 25 horrifically injured, it's time to take a stand and DO something!
Worcesterman
says...
6:12pm Sun 6 Jun 10
I am sorry to say this, but I feel you are in cloud cuckoo land.
helen donovan
says...
7:15pm Sun 6 Jun 10
littlejohn2
says...
11:15pm Sun 6 Jun 10
Of course my thoughts go out the the people effected by the actions of this one man , but thats all it was , one man . We can not tar everyone who holds a firearm with the same brush . Its a hard world we live in and sometimes we all feel the pressure ,99.9% of us can handle it ,but there's always the odd one amongest us that snap .
Worcesterman
says...
7:08am Mon 7 Jun 10
You said it all, thats the trouble of this Country, whenever anything like this happens, a few get on their soap boxes, to ban this and ban that, but does it stop whatever happens, no it don't.
Will they ever wake up and see that all it does is give the Government, more power to bring in more draconion laws, which in turn, makes us the People, less stronger, they love it, when the minority beg them to take more control over us, I feel so sorry for the young population, because, its going to hit them more than they know.
These are the same people, that beg the Government, not to hang murderers, because of their human rights, and yes they can be let out of their life sentence, after a few months inside, so that they can kill again, I don't hear Helen crying out over that, I suppose its because they dont have a four foot long,super duper hunting rifle.
Jabbadad
says...
7:50am Mon 7 Jun 10
Remove guns and we all will be safer.
Derek or Hymie? whichever with your legal backgound, surely your duty is to report these farmers as being unfit for a gun permit. You should practice what you preach.
Jabbadad
says...
7:50am Mon 7 Jun 10
Remove guns and we all will be safer.
Derek or Hymie? whichever with your legal backgound, surely your duty is to report these farmers as being unfit for a gun permit. You should practice what you preach.
Dereck
says...
10:45am Mon 7 Jun 10
Hymie has no intention to indicate one way or the other here, not wishing to unnecessarily upset a person who has a shotgun and a drink problem ! Would you?
Dereck
says...
10:46am Mon 7 Jun 10
Hymie has no intention to indicate one way or the other here, not wishing to unnecessarily upset a person who has a shotgun and a drink problem ! Would you?
New Kid on the Block
says...
11:00am Mon 7 Jun 10
"Taxi drivers don't need a long range automatic rifle with a 2 mile telescopic sight on it. I don't care if it spoils his "hobby" or not."
Please Helen keep your claims accurate and stop making exaggerated claims full of emotive language. It was not an automatic weapon, they were banned by the Firearms Act of 1937.
What is a 2 mile telescopic sight? You can see something 2 miles away with or without a telescopic sight but having the sight will not magically increase the range of the rifle.
helen donovan
says...
11:20am Mon 7 Jun 10
Littlejohn -cars cause death but it is not a deliberate act of killing, whereas guns only serve one purpose.
There was a telescopic sight on Birds gun, presumably so he can be more accurate, increasing his chance of shooting people dead.
Jabbadad
says...
12:22pm Mon 7 Jun 10
Worcesterman
says...
12:38pm Mon 7 Jun 10
You say cars, is not a deliberate act of killing, for your information, many of road deaths, are caused by drink driving.
If they did not drive whilst drunk, then many lives would be saved, would there not? are you going on your soap box, and try to ban drink?
I did not hear you feeling great sorrow when a drunk driver plowed into some kids, waiting for their bus.
Just think, if cars were banned, they would be alive, and so would the thousands being killed, by the motor car.
You think that I am having a go at you ? no I just cant equate your stance on this, but not others, I just cannot understand why you want to ban, what gives happiness to many,
but not to others, its crazy.
Hymie
says...
2:05pm Mon 7 Jun 10
On these pages we are allowed to give our views and any pertinent facts. Often we learn something new, seldom do we change fundamentally our stance. But in debating we should respect the right of others to hold differing personal
beliefs. Internet bullying is not nice. Make your points, correct factual inaccuracies and move on.
Worcesterman
says...
4:32pm Mon 7 Jun 10
I and others like me, do not hound others, we merely say our point of view.
Internet bullying, we could say that about you, but I digress, and tell you if someone keeps on repeating a subject, then we have that right too.
You seem to be for the banning of guns, and I am trying to fathom out your reason for that.
I must admit you seem to write about many things, and as of yet, I have never seen anything that makes me agree with you.
You say make your points, and move on, that would be a bit boring wouldn't it? after all if you reply to me, then obviously I will reply back.
Its not easy to ignor your replies,
because you always seem to think that you are right, and we have to bow down to your wisdom.
Hymie
says...
8:08am Tue 8 Jun 10
Here you say 'I appear to be for the banning of all guns and you want to fathom out the reason'. Why not read what I have already said which answers that. Guns are dangerious and tighter controls are needed as events in Cumbria have shown. We are not talking about cars or any other subject that misused can also kill. Want to have access to guns? That access should be secure and not endanger me or others.
Worcesterman
says...
11:12am Tue 8 Jun 10
You say that I want to have the last
word, well you said it, I didn't.
I get the impression that you really want guns banned alltogether, because how, can you make guns so secure, as to not worry you, dont you get it ? its not the people, in gun clubs, who run amok is it.
Obvously, you are not aware, that Mr wonderful Brown, that stupid Labour Prime Minister,( thank goodness he's gone) has allowed all sorts of criminals, access to our Country, and the Police will tell you that these are the worst of the worst.
Guess what they are bringing in apart from drugs, etc, Guns, and these are fully automatic, and the guys that were in the armed forces will tell you, you would not want to face those, the Police are rightly worried, and so am I.
And of course you in your quiet little world, will tell them to join a gun club, just to make you safe.
To make a point, I know that if I wanted a gun, I could get one, you only have to ask around, eventually
you will find one who can supply, at a price. These are guns that the Police do not know anything about, which means you dont need to bother them asking for a licence, not that they would hand one out for a automatic.
In answer to you hymie, you cannot guarantee your safty.
Right, you may think that I am a gun lover, no I am not, but I am not daft to think, you can ban guns, but I will tell you this, the only way you can stop people from having guns, is , if anyone found with one, apart from gun clubs, and farmers, who only need shotguns,the death penalty, when I mentioned that, I was told you can't say that, its against their human rights, so hymie I will give you the last word, and tell me what would you do?.
Dereck
says...
5:22pm Tue 8 Jun 10
Worcesterman
says...
7:15pm Tue 8 Jun 10
Jabbadad
says...
8:42pm Tue 8 Jun 10
Sad is a reasonable word.
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KILLER: Derrick Bird
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