BALLOT: Bus lanes around Worcester (From Worcester News)
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BALLOT: Bus lanes around Worcester
10:55am Tuesday 31st August 2010 in
NOTHING stirs debate more on this website than the mention of bus lanes in the city.
The council's viewpoint seems clear - bus lanes will get more people using public transport and will ease congestion in and around the Faithful City.
So today we have a very simple question whch anyone can answer. Will they make you use the bus/public transport more?
Please vote in our poll and use the comment box below to share your own views and opinions (in a considered and reasoned manner, please!).
Comments(53)
Andy_R
says...
11:16am Tue 31 Aug 10
pudniw_gib
says...
11:45am Tue 31 Aug 10
I am sure there are a good many drivers could use public transport and would if it was quicker than driving.
Not of course some of the rabid petrol heads that frequent these pages, who insist that the private car is a divine right and should take preference over environment and other road users.
There are people who cannot use the bus for work or other purposes, so it is fair enough that they drive a private vehicle but they shouldn't be inconvenienced by those who have a decent viable alternative means of getting to their destination, hopefully increased and perhaps improved bus services will help congestion.
Demigod
says...
12:13pm Tue 31 Aug 10
CJH
says...
1:12pm Tue 31 Aug 10
Jabbadad
says...
2:16pm Tue 31 Aug 10
So either they haven't heard of car-share or they have had it and discarded it.
But back to little old Worcester, the ideas behind Bus Lanes and Park & Ride, and Bus passes are to keep as many cars as possible out of the City Centre.
And while we are still held to ransom by the Claines Principality over the Northern By-Pass we will have an ever increasing problem.
Logik
says...
2:19pm Tue 31 Aug 10
CJH wrote:I think what Murray means is 'thou shall not criticise the county council transport planners and moreover, thou shall definitely not be critical of Cllr Derek Prodger who presides over this wasteful nonsense.
Comments in a considered and reasoned manner? Murray, you take all the fun out of this sometimes!
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What is the point in asking for comments when you can't say what you think. This council has already run roughshod over the people it is meant to serve by ignoring them entirely and such attitudes only helps them in continuing to do so.
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The bus is all but dead, the sooner they realise that the better.
Drico
says...
2:39pm Tue 31 Aug 10
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In both cases I have seen the driving standards of some of Worcester's buses and I wouldn't fancy getting on one even if they do have their own lanes!
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If the council just sign-post the combined footways/cycleways properly that will be good enough for me, thanks!
murray kelso
says...
2:59pm Tue 31 Aug 10
It would be interesting to see a debate about this subject without the above nonsense because we're all adults here, after all.
BarryMacG
says...
3:07pm Tue 31 Aug 10
Perhaps the bus routes could be adjusted to take the busses away from these bottlenecks and a slight detour around them so as to keep traffic flowing, but i suspect not!
More care needs to be taken before forcing these rolling traffic roads blocks on us
Whenever i have appoinments in town I try not to use my car and walk in, but if I am off on business beyond town, I tend to avoid the centre and drive around the southern link
MrStJohns
says...
3:09pm Tue 31 Aug 10
Not owning a car at present means I do use public transport around Worcester to get from Worcester to Birmingham London etc. While I understand the joys of cars, i can see why we need to find better ways of travelling around our towns and cities. The system currently in place in Worcester doesn’t work to badly the late night buses from the city centre back to st johns are great, while I applaud the use of initiatives to get people onto public transport, the problem really is the attitude of some road users that would use a car just because they can not because the need to. I know it’s a long way in the future, if it happens at all, but I honestly think a halt at Henwick road would be very advantageous for university traffic and also for travel between Worcester and birmgham.
Jabbadad
says...
3:24pm Tue 31 Aug 10
Let's hope that now Worcester is soon to have multiple split uni sites, that the thinkers /planners have thought this one through, since with Mike Fosters 3,000 plus new student quote it will need something.
Jabbadad
says...
3:25pm Tue 31 Aug 10
MrStJohns
says...
3:34pm Tue 31 Aug 10
Logik
says...
4:51pm Tue 31 Aug 10
murray kelso wrote:I thought that would stir you up Murray!
Logik - What Murray means is "Please don't launch in to the predictable, defamatory and downright insulting tirade that occasionally dogs this site because such comments will be removed for legal reasons and the offending commenter(s), who will no doubt bleat about the mythical notion of 'freedom of speech' and his/her right to express whatever opinion they want, will be banned."
It would be interesting to see a debate about this subject without the above nonsense because we're all adults here, after all.
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Do you have any idea how the council have handles the Newtown Road debacle. Well it's like this.
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They have decided to put a bus lane along Newtown Road, not because it would be of benefit, any fool can see that it was a ridiculous idea. No, the reason was is that there was money to be had and they wanted a share of it, irrespective of what the residents wanted. When you were able to dismember their arguments they got very hostile and just ignored people and you were basically told to go away. I spoke to a guy last week who said they had repeatedly hung up on him. This has been the norm throughout. You ask them questions and they answer nothing. Instead of being public servants they have become little dictators.
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So as a result of all this we are now to have a hop skip and jump bus lane which will do nothing to ease congestion and to be honest, the congestion they speak of is minimal. The solution, if indeed one was needed was always to tackle the railway bridge bottleneck, but hey, that would never do would it. Newtown Road will end up looking like a Birmingham suburb, and for what.
.
Whilst you Murray might like a debate, council transport planners and Cllr Prodger do not. Their attitude is that they know best and anyway, had they not designed this ridiculous scheme, the money would have gone elsewhere and someone else would have had it. That is fact, straight fro one of the horses mouths. All they wanted was their slice of the cake to keep them in work. With this sort of attitude is it any wonder the country is bankrupt.
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Some years ago we had city-buses, glorified Mercedes vans, as they were cheaper to run and bus demand was in decline. It seems to me that bus demand has never increased since that time yet we are back to big buses, why? Could it have anything to do with the amount of subsidies bus operators can get.
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We now have buses roaming around this city, fairly empty. And don't get me started on the Sixways Park and Ride, another lemon if ever there was one. They've even tried forcing hospital staff and their own council employees to use them, to little avail. How much is all this costing taxpayers, it'll never turn a profit in a million years.
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For varying reasons, people do not want buses as they did in the 60's and 70's, and they never will. It is relatively expensive and unreliable, the reliability though has nothing to do with congestion. If it was for free bus passes I think that they'd be empty altogether.
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I still think that Cllr Prodger and his cohorts should resign. This country cannot afford such ridiculous and pointless schemes and this profligate waste.
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So, when you say Murray about not 'launching into predictable, defamatory and downright insulting tirade', if you had tried to deal and reason with these people, you might have some idea as to why they get people so angry. Basically, it's a shut up and do as you're told, we know best. We're in charge so ****** off.
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Somehow, I just can't see Derek Prodger claiming his customary photo op when this debacle in Newtown Road is eventually finished, unless of course it is under the cover of darkness.
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By the way, shouldn't we have been having this debate long ago. It's a little pointless when it is all done and dusted surely.
Logik
says...
4:58pm Tue 31 Aug 10
Hymie
says...
6:33pm Tue 31 Aug 10
uptonX
says...
6:42pm Tue 31 Aug 10
molecat
says...
7:00pm Tue 31 Aug 10
Hymie wrote:You're right in the longer term Hymie, but Logik (in his lovely tirade) hits the nail on the head. These bus lanes are more do do with the attitudes of local government than being green or easing congestion. What is needed is buses that run throughout the city at 10 minute intervals through the day that are completely free of charge. That is the only way you'd get everyone out of their cars and using public transport. It would slash congestion and make travel through the city quicker for everyone. But it's about as likely to happen as Councillor Prodger not appearing in the WN for a whole week!
The reality is that in just a few years time when developing countries want more oil for industry and electricity generation fuel for private cars will be beyond the means of all but the rich and lorries carrying our food and consumables. Then commuter routes will have to be well served by public transport. The County Council are wisely preparing now for that inevitable scenario.
Worcesterman
says...
7:21pm Tue 31 Aug 10
Can anyone tell me why, if there is money to be spent, why not spend it on other useful projects?
Are the Council told they have to use it on bus lanes?
Murray, can you tell me?
DarrenM
says...
7:56pm Tue 31 Aug 10
CJH
says...
8:04pm Tue 31 Aug 10
Hymie
says...
8:11pm Tue 31 Aug 10
Logik
says...
8:36pm Tue 31 Aug 10
DarrenM wrote:That's it!!!!
how about - and heres a radical idea - we change all the roads with bus lanes into three way roads with the central lane being into the city in the morning rush hour and out of the city in the evening rush hour. Surely a far more sensible way of easing congestion.
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Gantries all around Worcester. That should spoil the City nicely and make it look even more like Birmingham.
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For God's sake don't give them any more stupid ideas, they're doing well enough on that front all on their own.
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I like Worcester, I was born here, but let's face it, it's a little tin-pot City. It is not London, Birmingham, Sheffield or the like. Just because other large cities have bus lanes doesn't mean Worcester should have them, although that is the message they tried to sell to me over Newtown Road.
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The fact is by comparison to these, Worcester is a piddling little City, it does not warrant the same public transport infrastructure that other cities may well need. I think the transport planners here are suffering from delusions, they obviously don't realise just where they are living.
cmot1967
says...
9:02pm Tue 31 Aug 10
Sadly the council highways staff don`t think things out correctly because they simply don`t have a clue, resulting in half-hearted public transport schemes and traffic chaos.
If County Hall was full of people with a modicum of common sense, like the tax payer for example, may be our road and transport network would improve upon what we have now.
Instead we have lunatics in charge of the asylum.
baldegale1001
says...
9:32pm Tue 31 Aug 10
.
City buses probably rotted from all the urine thats how they alway smelt.
The network of bus stops were changed to suit these city buses, now you can follow 3 No 35 buses in rush hour all tryng to stop the traffic on the astwood road bottom of Tunnel hill, the Bus stop is too small for them to fit in.
Logik spot on, but my spelling mistakes are contributed too by a Maplins wireless key board, bit like the bus service in Worcester. random!
DarrenM
says...
9:37pm Tue 31 Aug 10
Yes! Gantries and underpasses, new roads and more car parks with cheaper parking - Then people may actually want to come into the city centre rather than avoid it, which will in turn encourage more retail businesses, more shoppers, and more investment and more jobs.
A win-win all round - its only the outer roads I'm talking about, I don't suggest we should demolish the Cathedral or the Guildhall!
I mean Newtown Road is hardly likely to feature in a picture guide to Britains most beautiful historic roads is it?
You can't have it both ways, something needs to be done about the traffic situation, Bus lanes are clearly a massive waste of time and money, and unless something is done the city centre is going to eventually wither and die, so why not make it easier for people to get into the city centre, quickly and in ways they want?
Frank Owen
says...
9:46pm Tue 31 Aug 10
Every day Forgate St bakers have their vans parked half on the pavement, in a bus lane for hours on end. Not once have i seen a Parking attendant in that area......see them all the time in the car parks checking for expired tickets....i guess that is easy pickings compared to actually doing something to ease traffic flow!
Also, the bus lane from Lowesmoor towards the centre.......why is there never any enforcement on the fact it is a BUS lane and not a "any car we feel like" lane?
Lowesmoor itself.....again, never seen a parking attendant down there. Again, guess it's too much hassle for them when there is easier money to be made in the car parks.
The yellow box junction outside McDonalds.....waste of paint....no one abides by it, and hence all the buses get jammed up because they can't get across from Lowesmoor, or turn right from Foregate street.
The Butts...every afternoon a white van is parked outside a kebab shop forcing all the traffic into one lane causing tailbacks down to the river......never seen a Parking attendant deal with that.....
The council can put in all the bus lanes and parking restrictions it wants, but unless it can actually be bothered to enforce them, they are a complete waste of money.
Logik
says...
10:22pm Tue 31 Aug 10
9:37pm Tue 31 Aug 10
"I mean Newtown Road is hardly likely to feature in a picture guide to Britains most beautiful historic roads is it?
You can't have it both ways, something needs to be done about the traffic situation,"
.
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Newtown Road might not be a picture postcard but is that a just reason for having it dug up, trees chopped down for a bus lane and a multitude of traffic lights that will do nothing to help.
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Underpasses?, gantries?, again I repeat, this ain't B'ham or the like, just sleepy little old inconsequential Worcester. Keep the big ideas for the big cities please.
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As for solving the traffic situation, how about building the new road bridge at Bevere. That would complete the orbital route around the city and ease city centre traffic.
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Still, that is a common sense solution and we can't have common sense now can we.
Thorn1979
says...
11:07pm Tue 31 Aug 10
I live in Redhill and I usually cycle to work which is a distance of about 3 miles, half an hour for me cos I'm unfit.
To take the bus, I had to allow an hour or more, I had to take two different buses with two different operators (who quite frequently drove right past me at stops because "no-one goes that way"), and it cost me 20 quid for a week.
Laughable.
I also use the bus to go to Evesham - can someone tell me why First's route costs me £5.50 return on a weekday, but Diamond can run a faster, cleaner service on sundays and bank holidays, but only charge £3.50?
This is why people don't use buses - bus lanes are pointless while the buses themselves are empty.
Frank Owen
says...
8:38am Wed 1 Sep 10
11:07pm Tue 31 Aug 10
"I also use the bus to go to Evesham - can someone tell me why First's route costs me £5.50 return on a weekday, but Diamond can run a faster, cleaner service on sundays and bank holidays, but only charge £3.50?"
Because they run it at a loss in an attempt to undercut their rival?
I have no idea whether both companies follow the same route, but if they do and one is faster than the other, are their drivers speeding to achieve that time?
If not, maybe one goes a shorter which would also explain the time and price difference?
consider_this
says...
2:47pm Wed 1 Sep 10
.
To start with, I will - probably to my eternal regret - say that I am a transport planner by profession. I do not however, work for the County Council.
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In my opinion, the Newtown Road scheme is possibly a poor use of money - I just cannot understand how any business case could have been developed which has anywhere near a high enough BCR to justify the investment - but would be happy to be shown otherwise.
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Worcester has traffic problems for two reasons, the biggest of which has already been identified by BarryMacG - the huge bottlenecks towards the City Centre, such as railway bridges, river crossings and fairly narrow arterial roads in the centre.
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The other issue is car parking provision. Worcester has a lot of provision for car parking, very close to the City Centre, which is very cheap - you might not think so, but try parking in or near Birmingham City Centre and you'll understand how cheap Worcester is.
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Essentially, bus lanes are not really very likely to solve these problems, in most locations, but they are not adding to the problems either - as they are usually an additional lane added retrospectively rather than removing current road space.
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Also, as a footnote the tidal flow on the Aston Expressway operates with a single clear lane between the two flows of traffic - adding a safety buffer between the opposing lanes. I doubt there would be roads wide enough for a minimum of four lanes of traffic in worcester.
CJH
says...
3:01pm Wed 1 Sep 10
Dereck
says...
3:13pm Wed 1 Sep 10
CJH
says...
3:19pm Wed 1 Sep 10
consider_this
says...
3:24pm Wed 1 Sep 10
Dereck wrote:Derek, the point that I was trying to make, which admittedly I made a hash of, is that there is always one lane that is not used between the two flows of traffic e.g. 4 inbound, 1 clear, and 2 outbound for example. At least this is how I thought that it operated - and a quick look on streetview seems to validate that, but if I'm wrong, fair enough, I stand corrected.
The point above is not correct. The Aston Expressway has 7 lanes. In the mornings rush hour 4 are used INTO Birmingham. At evening rush hour that is reversed with 4 OUT of the City and 3 in. There is the middle lane a lighter colour and the flow is reversed only on it. There is no formal barrier between opposite direction of travel. Look at satellite view on Google.
Dereck
says...
3:26pm Wed 1 Sep 10
What is wrong with correcting someones error? (a planner at that). And you want him to take over and run the Council here! Is that because his error still makes him better than those currently doing the job?
CJH
says...
3:31pm Wed 1 Sep 10
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When you say you're wearing a gown in front of a judge...is that because you are in the legal profession, or something a bit more flamboyant??? The mind boggles...
murray kelso
says...
3:33pm Wed 1 Sep 10
.
MK - Digital Editor
Dereck
says...
3:36pm Wed 1 Sep 10
There are 7 carriageways in total. During the remainder of the day 3 in -3 out. And the middle lane empty. But NOT in the rush period where the 7 lanes are used. I travel on this road to Birmingham often. I stand by my facts.
Jabbadad
says...
4:12pm Wed 1 Sep 10
I also recall along the London embankment during the 1970's they were experimenting with reverse traffic flow sytems then.
But anyway we don't need these drastic measures we need a traffic light system which is phased according to traffic volume. The snarl ups into this city can all be credited to traffic light problems. Haven't you noticed that when traffic lights fail the traffic seems to run smoother, and drivers are actually more considerate to each other.
With Traffic light controlled pedestrian crossings that are on Red with no one on them. Change them To Zebra crosings, Drivers still have to pull up if somone is waiting to cross, and no history of higher accidents when we had more of them.
BarryMacG
says...
5:36pm Wed 1 Sep 10
rgds
Baz
Logik
says...
6:11pm Wed 1 Sep 10
consider_this wrote:The business model consider_this was that there was money available from central government for transport (bus lanes) and they had to find something to spend it on or lose it, hence the completely pointless and ridiculous scheme we are now having along Newtown Road. It was, at the end of the day, as simple as that.
I figure that I should put my cards on the table...
.
To start with, I will - probably to my eternal regret - say that I am a transport planner by profession. I do not however, work for the County Council.
.
In my opinion, the Newtown Road scheme is possibly a poor use of money - I just cannot understand how any business case could have been developed which has anywhere near a high enough BCR to justify the investment - but would be happy to be shown otherwise.
.
Worcester has traffic problems for two reasons, the biggest of which has already been identified by BarryMacG - the huge bottlenecks towards the City Centre, such as railway bridges, river crossings and fairly narrow arterial roads in the centre.
.
The other issue is car parking provision. Worcester has a lot of provision for car parking, very close to the City Centre, which is very cheap - you might not think so, but try parking in or near Birmingham City Centre and you'll understand how cheap Worcester is.
.
Essentially, bus lanes are not really very likely to solve these problems, in most locations, but they are not adding to the problems either - as they are usually an additional lane added retrospectively rather than removing current road space.
.
Also, as a footnote the tidal flow on the Aston Expressway operates with a single clear lane between the two flows of traffic - adding a safety buffer between the opposing lanes. I doubt there would be roads wide enough for a minimum of four lanes of traffic in worcester.
Hymie
says...
6:17pm Wed 1 Sep 10
Logik
says...
6:33pm Wed 1 Sep 10
murray kelso wrote:Now now Murray!!, who's a naughty boy now then?
If I could just interject for a moment, I'd like to thank Logik for taking the time to type a good, reasoned post... and I'd like to thank everyone here for avoiding use of the word 'todger'.
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MK - Digital Editor
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Good old Cllr 'ahem'-ger MBE. He now has to be the county's most ridiculed councillor. What an achievement, he should be proud!
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(To the tune of Benny Hill's Ernie)
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They won't forget old Derek, (Derek) - and he stuck down blasted bus lanes like a pest.
consider_this
says...
6:41pm Wed 1 Sep 10
Hymie wrote:I am bewildered. I've just been along the whole of the A38M in both satellite view and in streetview and cannot see a single instance where all seven lanes are in use at the same time. If I'm wrong, fine I'll admit that, as some of you have said, you've seen it with your own eyes. However, just to add a bit more confusion I urge you to go to Wikipedia and search for A38M - not the A5127, which google incorrectly calls it - and read the section called Tidal Flow.
If consider_this looks again at A5127 (Aston Expressway) at satilite and Streetview he will see that all 7 lanes are used, as Dereck said. I cannot under stand how you can say that a quick look validates your erroneous statement! Take a longer look.
Hymie
says...
7:24pm Wed 1 Sep 10
lanes are visably used.
Hymie
says...
7:32pm Wed 1 Sep 10
When you find it on Streetview (A5127) you will find that it also has it's arrows showing it to be 'ASTON EXPRESSWAY'.
consider_this
says...
7:38pm Wed 1 Sep 10
Hymie wrote:Hymie,
You have been along the whole of A38M? Why? We are talking about an entirely different road. The Aston expressway (A5127), from Gravelly Hill Interchange (Spagetti Junction) there are over 70 mentions of A5127, over 10 mentions of Aston Expressway and over 40 vehicles travelling on the middle (of 7) lanes, towards Bormongham. All lanes are visably used.
1. Google maps is wrong, the Aston Expressway is the A38(M) - google that to your hearts content, the A5127 is the Lichfield Road. Also, try looking at Bing maps, that is correct.
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2. Yes, there are about 40 vehicles travelling in the middle lane (the red one), all travelling south. In the lane immediately next to it (to the West, or left) - the northbound side - please count and tell me how many are in that lane travelling north immediately next to the "red" lane...I think you'll find that it's 0.
MJI
says...
1:19pm Thu 2 Sep 10
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All in all a horrid road to now use.
Kalibo
says...
8:33pm Thu 2 Sep 10
Biggles
says...
9:44pm Thu 2 Sep 10
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I already have the car, it's already taxed and insured.
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It's an executive saloon, all leather and wood trim, it has climate control, I can smoke if I wish, I can listen to music if I wish.
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I do not have to share space with strangers etc etc
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It costs about 18 pence per mile in petrol to use.
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So, remind me, why would I want to catch a bus ?
Logik
says...
10:17pm Thu 2 Sep 10
Biggles wrote:Here are a few more Biggles.
I cannot understand why people would choose to use a bus over their car.
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I already have the car, it's already taxed and insured.
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It's an executive saloon, all leather and wood trim, it has climate control, I can smoke if I wish, I can listen to music if I wish.
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I do not have to share space with strangers etc etc
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It costs about 18 pence per mile in petrol to use.
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So, remind me, why would I want to catch a bus ?
This is why the car will always rule.
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Your transport is there at the exact time you want it 24/7.
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The car goes from door to door.
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You don't have to trek to and from a bus stop and stand around in all weathers.
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It is generally cheaper to drive into town and pay the parking for short stays.
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Take a family passenger or two and the fuel costs are almost the same, not two or three times as much. You are now quids in!
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You can't miss the car as you can a bus. You are in charge of your own timetable.
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You are much safer in your own space.
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Whilst you might not want to catch a bus Biggles, Cllr Prodger thinks you should, whilst at the same time I might add, swanning around in his own luxury car.
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Perhaps if you had an MBE Biggles, you too could say who has to go by bus as well.
DermotItis
says...
9:42am Fri 3 Sep 10
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You don't have to smell what everybody else had for breakfast.
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You don't have to sit where somebody with a different hygiene regime to your own has left their signature.
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You don't have to listen to endless, mindless mobile phone 'conversations' between idiots "I'm on the bus", "We're going under a bridge", "We're going past Lidl's", "There's a car broken down".
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I don't want my space polluted by what is acceptable to others but not me.
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Please don't be so condescending as to tell me that I need educating!
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BALLOT: Bus lanes around Worcester
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