Don’t let old city pub become flats

12:50pm Monday 22nd October 2012 in News

PROPOSAL: The Northwick Arms on the corner of Vine Street and Northwick Road (37129601) Buy this photo » PROPOSAL: The Northwick Arms on the corner of Vine Street and Northwick Road (37129601)

PROPOSALS to turn a Worcester pub into apartments would be a loss to the community, campaigners claim.

Bill Ottaway, spokesman for the Campaign for Real Ale (CAMRA), said people had been in touch expressing concerns over the planning application from Maja Developments to change the use of the Northwick Arms on the corner of Vine Street and Northwick Road.

Plans to turn the former 19th century pub into four one-bed apartments and build a two-bed bungalow and two two-bedroom semis on land behind it have been submitted to Worcester City Council.

A letter included in the planning application from planning and development consultants Active Permissions claimed the pub had been in decline for the last 10 years.

It said that a contributing factor had been the loss of custom following the closure of Faithful Overalls opposite the pub in Northwick Road to be replaced by a housing development for the over-55s which featured its own community facilities.

But Mr Ottaway said the loss of any pub had an impact on the community and CAMRA would be supporting residents who did not want the application to go ahead.

He said: “It is always sad when there is the possibility of losing a pub – it is not something we welcome or like to see.

“We prefer pubs to be given as many chances as possible but in a lot of situations the land is worth more to developers than keeping it as a pub.

“Pubs are definitely important to the local community and it is sad to see quite a few pubs out in areas such as this one in similar situations.”

However, the letter argued that the Northwick Arms, which closed its doors in July, did not play a valuable function in the community as it had no meeting rooms for people or supported sporting teams.

People have until Tuesday, October 30 to respond to the proposals which can be viewed in the planning applications section at worcester.gov.uk

Comments(41)

MrStJohns says...
1:47pm Mon 22 Oct 12

Totally agree, pubs should be preserved at all costs they are, regardless of what developers may want councils to think, still places people meet and socialise. if the lack of meeting room is all that is preventing the Northwick being viable, who not use some of the car parking space to create a meeting/social space for the pub and bring it back into use as a community hub as it should be. Not a another mundane development of flats.

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Realistblue says...
1:58pm Mon 22 Oct 12

preserved at all costs?
well thats it, no-one wants to go and plough there money into a non-viable business, people cant afford to go out drinking nowadays, times have changed.

you find most the people who moan about the pubs being converted/bulldozed, are the ones who dont actually go to a pub, or moan about noise when they are open!

funny how CAMRA never objected to the The Langlands in Malvern or the Drakes Drum in Dines Green.

the two sites that Tesco and housing bought....

worcester needs new houses/flats, out with the old and in with the new!

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Worcester Lad says...
2:02pm Mon 22 Oct 12

Agree build a skittle alley,join crib & domino leagues try it for a couple of years don't just give in be proactive.

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MrStJohns says...
2:05pm Mon 22 Oct 12

You will find i am not in the group of people who complain but never visit the pub, i frequent them rather often :-)


The actual reason for alot of pub closure is smoking ban, pubcos increasing rents/tieing land lords into unsustainable rents etc.


By all means build more housing, i have nothing against it, but there are far more sites with nothing on that could be utilised for such ventures.

Your out with the old comment is totally irrelevant, as building flats isn't exactly a new phenomena the Victorians who built the above pub also built many a flat :-).

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Jackie Barry says...
2:17pm Mon 22 Oct 12

Yet another pub to go through planning.

People do use pubs, Skittles, pool and darts are very much alive. Problem is that these teams are running out of suitable venues as more and more are being sold for development. Nice little pub the Northwick, well used by families. Will be a great shame if this is another planning appplication that is just "rubber stamped" despite the loss to the local community.

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MrStJohns says...
2:26pm Mon 22 Oct 12

Jackie Barry wrote:
Yet another pub to go through planning.

People do use pubs, Skittles, pool and darts are very much alive. Problem is that these teams are running out of suitable venues as more and more are being sold for development. Nice little pub the Northwick, well used by families. Will be a great shame if this is another planning appplication that is just "rubber stamped" despite the loss to the local community.
i hope the council see sense on this one, the arboretum pub was put in for the same planning permission to turn it into flats and that was turned down. hopefully this application will see the same fate.

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gmoore1207 says...
2:41pm Mon 22 Oct 12

at least its not going to be another indian restraunt

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Endconreignforever says...
2:43pm Mon 22 Oct 12

Seems to me that you have all got it wrong. Alcohol blights our communities. It causes deaths and is the cause of many anti social behaviours especially fighting and brawls. No wonder CAMRA don't want this to happen. Big Business again trying to use it's muscle. Pubs are a thing of the past, beautiful places that they are sometimes, they no longer are part of our social makeup thankfully. I do think there are people that can enjoy just the social element and for them it is a shame but we are living in different times now and Pubs don't serve the community like the did in the past. Maybe if they had a coffee shop or community centre you could meet there and have your chats..Or maybe you can meet at the Perdiswell Sports centre instead and get fit!!

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Realistblue says...
2:46pm Mon 22 Oct 12

Is the Vine, 100 yards away not a community hub? with darts and pool ?
how many pubs in a square mile does the community need?

so all those in favour of keeping the pub open, which of you are willing to put ££££'s in to get the place going? not many would dare, because deep down you know it would fail and you would be deep into the red within months.

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MrStJohns says...
2:50pm Mon 22 Oct 12

Endconreignforever wrote:
Seems to me that you have all got it wrong. Alcohol blights our communities. It causes deaths and is the cause of many anti social behaviours especially fighting and brawls. No wonder CAMRA don't want this to happen. Big Business again trying to use it's muscle. Pubs are a thing of the past, beautiful places that they are sometimes, they no longer are part of our social makeup thankfully. I do think there are people that can enjoy just the social element and for them it is a shame but we are living in different times now and Pubs don't serve the community like the did in the past. Maybe if they had a coffee shop or community centre you could meet there and have your chats..Or maybe you can meet at the Perdiswell Sports centre instead and get fit!!
its always baffling to me when people feel their opinion is fact while everyone else's must be wrong.

in my humble opinion pubs are still part of peoples social life, and the more that can be saved and kept in business the better. :-)

oh and the sooner the government wises up to the idea of allowing pubs to buy licences to have smoking areas will also vastly improve trade.

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Realistblue says...
2:53pm Mon 22 Oct 12

oh and the sooner the government wises up to the idea of allowing pubs to buy licences to have smoking areas will also vastly improve trade


^^^ THIS

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jabroner says...
3:40pm Mon 22 Oct 12

I love backstreet pubs!!

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mayall8808 says...
4:39pm Mon 22 Oct 12

Bill Ottaway, spokesman for the Campaign for Real Ale (CAMRA), said people had been in touch expressing concerns over the planning application from Maja Developments to change the use of the Northwick Arms on the corner of Vine Street and Northwick Road.

Yes they are objecting to it BUT if you don't use it you lose it and this pub needed to be revamped and tidyed up as it was a mess as the last landlord had another job and did the pub as a hobby, i was not a a regular user but would call every 2-3 weeks untill 4 months ago as it is the only pub i had been in in Worcester where i had to take the beer back twice in the same night, it was rubbish, the guy running it had no idea at all, i don't want it to be yet anther block of flats but as i say use it or lose it!

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Jabbadad says...
4:41pm Mon 22 Oct 12

I agree with comments about local pubs, however I don't live next door to one. My mum lived in Northwick and so we as a family had many a good nights entertainment at the Northwick Arms, however those who lived close by and didn't use the pub also had the same entertainment, and no matter how they have tried to soundproof pubs there still is a great deal of discomfort for neighbours, even those who lived by the Deers Leap. Which of course is now a most beautiful Doctors surgery and Chemist.
And yes there is a very well appointed pub The Vine just 100 yards away from the Northwick Arms , so the area isn't going dry. And you won't see many campaigners putting up their money to save a pub.

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green49 says...
4:48pm Mon 22 Oct 12

Why by a house by a pub ? you have to expect some noise, the Dears Leap was a good place for local music and what have they done with it? the same moaners who moaned about the noise are now moaning about the doctors surgery traffic and parking.

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green49 says...
4:50pm Mon 22 Oct 12

Last time i went to the Northwick it was a right mess, decorating which had'nt been finish and it had been like that for a year at least, its a shame it has closed but sometimes your time is up.

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WJS1950 says...
5:47pm Mon 22 Oct 12

Endconreignforever wrote:
Seems to me that you have all got it wrong. Alcohol blights our communities. It causes deaths and is the cause of many anti social behaviours especially fighting and brawls. No wonder CAMRA don't want this to happen. Big Business again trying to use it's muscle. Pubs are a thing of the past, beautiful places that they are sometimes, they no longer are part of our social makeup thankfully. I do think there are people that can enjoy just the social element and for them it is a shame but we are living in different times now and Pubs don't serve the community like the did in the past. Maybe if they had a coffee shop or community centre you could meet there and have your chats..Or maybe you can meet at the Perdiswell Sports centre instead and get fit!!
Ever thought that people actually like to drink alcohol now and in conjunction with the pub environment, which is unique, while many do drink responsibly. And perhaps even enjoy a coffee at other times of the day - shock horror, many pubs even sell tea, coffee, soft drinks, water! Perhaps cars should be banned too so that road casualties are eliminated.

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iamthebinman says...
7:40pm Mon 22 Oct 12

MrStJohns
Let's talk about our neck of the woods. Popped out for a pint with my visiting father this evening and found The Grovernor, The Bush, The Bell and The Brewers all within a few hundred yards practically empty but possibly with enough drinkers to make one of them a great little pub.

We don't need twenty places to drink in St Johns as not that many people go to pubs anymore. Simple.

Northwick no doubt the same.

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Cricket/Hockey :) says...
9:56pm Mon 22 Oct 12

It's got a good car park for flats but I personally don't think it's the ideal location for flats. We already have two hotels, one of which is disgusting on the outside(no offence intended) and I think if the pub was turned into flats, it would make us look like we were trying to squash everything in the city, because the building isn't exactly big on the outside and I don't reckon houses nearby would enjoy having flats because they would probably go to university students, who obviously enjoy a good party ( I mean, who doesn't!)

I think something needs to be done, because it would be horrible if it ended up like the old car garage land, which is turning into a forest of plants and weeds. However, I don't think flats are the answer. Maybe a store of some sort, the store at the front of the building and a cafe in the smaller building at the back. That would be good because they're aren't many stores in that specific area so it would attract attention and a decent car park certainly helps.
Just an idea!

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Cricket/Hockey :) says...
10:45pm Mon 22 Oct 12

Don't mean to sound boastful but I've just had an excellent idea. Maybe they could combine the two pharmacists in town and make the pub a pharmacy. Close to the new doctors surgery, decent car park, decent building in good condition. You could have your pharmacy at the front of the building and a cafe at the back. It would be ideal!

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Vox populi says...
11:46pm Mon 22 Oct 12

Endconreignforever wrote:
Seems to me that you have all got it wrong. Alcohol blights our communities. It causes deaths and is the cause of many anti social behaviours especially fighting and brawls. No wonder CAMRA don't want this to happen. Big Business again trying to use it's muscle. Pubs are a thing of the past, beautiful places that they are sometimes, they no longer are part of our social makeup thankfully. I do think there are people that can enjoy just the social element and for them it is a shame but we are living in different times now and Pubs don't serve the community like the did in the past. Maybe if they had a coffee shop or community centre you could meet there and have your chats..Or maybe you can meet at the Perdiswell Sports centre instead and get fit!!
Then I basked in the smugness of my opinion and foisted it upon everyone else.

Pubs can be vital to a community and are not populated by overweight yobs as you seem to suggest.

I know a few you pubs you would be welcome at and even suggest to the likes of the Worcester Warriors rugby team that they should "try the gym" while they are enjoying a pint.

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MrsP... says...
8:22am Tue 23 Oct 12

I have recently started working in a small 'community pub' and was blown away by the support network it offers to its customers and the customers offer to each other. Everyone is there to help each other however they can. Using thier various skills/trade/tools/k
nowledge or just a symphathetic ear.
For some a Sunday drink in the pub is one of the rare opportunities
they get to leave the house and have a good chat with friends, they look out for each other, taking it in turns to provide lifts etc. They share produce from thier allotments and items baked at home. They bring with them sometimes 3 or 4 generations of thier family from the granchild through to the proud grandparents.
I truley thought this lifestyle and community spirit was long gone but I can assure it is very much alive.
It is these pubs where their is no binge drinking and fighting that need to be preserved, showing the younger generations how to use a pub correctly and be part of a community.

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katiekins says...
9:13am Tue 23 Oct 12

MrStJohns wrote:
Endconreignforever wrote:
Seems to me that you have all got it wrong. Alcohol blights our communities. It causes deaths and is the cause of many anti social behaviours especially fighting and brawls. No wonder CAMRA don't want this to happen. Big Business again trying to use it's muscle. Pubs are a thing of the past, beautiful places that they are sometimes, they no longer are part of our social makeup thankfully. I do think there are people that can enjoy just the social element and for them it is a shame but we are living in different times now and Pubs don't serve the community like the did in the past. Maybe if they had a coffee shop or community centre you could meet there and have your chats..Or maybe you can meet at the Perdiswell Sports centre instead and get fit!!
its always baffling to me when people feel their opinion is fact while everyone else's must be wrong.

in my humble opinion pubs are still part of peoples social life, and the more that can be saved and kept in business the better. :-)

oh and the sooner the government wises up to the idea of allowing pubs to buy licences to have smoking areas will also vastly improve trade.
Not part of my social life i dont drink..

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Hwicce says...
9:49am Tue 23 Oct 12

I used to drop into the Northwick from time to time but it turned into a dump so I stopped going.

Like a lot of pubs if you're not part of the regular crowd you're made to feel unwelcome.

People these days vote with their feet, poor service soon has it's results - no customers.

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Arthur Blenkinsop says...
9:54am Tue 23 Oct 12

There have been similar discussions regarding local pub closures. In the end it does boil down to, 'is the pub actually being used and is it paying its way'? If not, it can't possibly carry on and unfortunately building affordable housing is the up and coming thing. If local pubs were used more by the locals, then there wouldn't be an issue with closure. It's a crying shame, but a fact that more and more pubs will close through lack of use.

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More Tea Vicar says...
10:02am Tue 23 Oct 12

I'm all for pubs, especially real ale ones.

But there are a lot of pubs in that area already, and this one clearly failed for a reason.

Worcester should build up, not out. The South Worcestershire Wrecking Plan should be scrapped, and all involved in it sacked.

But building on brownfield sites within the city is, generally, a good thing and should be encouraged.

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one94 says...
12:22pm Tue 23 Oct 12

".. the letter argued that the Northwick Arms, which closed its doors in July, did not play a valuable function in the community as it had no meeting rooms for people or supported sporting teams"
.
It had a darts team
.
Unfortunately the pub had got a bit run down, but if every time a pub needed a refurb it was turned into flats, there would be no where left to socialise. Remember we've already lost The Bell and the Deers Leap

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Mr Vomit says...
3:25pm Tue 23 Oct 12

It is a shame so many pubs are closing but it is a fact of modern life and Councils should do more to make it possible for change of use into residential use for example, especially if they are converted into 'affordable' housing for younger people.

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Jabbadad says...
3:58pm Tue 23 Oct 12

More and more Pubs had to turn to food and music to make a profit, and the Northwick Arms spent lots of money to try Sound Insulation to no avail, since it's almost impossible to completely insulate property that is almost surrounded by Houses very close by. Those who don't complain are those enjoying the music events, but when the pub hours got later & later and rightfully so there were many who lived near-bye and who had to get up early to go to work, was when a problem arose.
Sadly Pubs and Neighbours don't exist too well together.

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mayall8808 says...
4:47pm Tue 23 Oct 12

Hwicce i agree with you on the Northwick i always thought it would make a lovely place with some investment but it got so much of a dump, and as i said above the beer was rubbish
We have lost The Bell (years ago in Droitwich rd) the Dears was good for music until it was sold from under the tenants nose, The Vine needs a face lift in and out.
it must be hard to make a living owning a pub these days but we cannot moan about them closing if we don,t use them.

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Geep says...
5:42pm Tue 23 Oct 12

Realistblue wrote:
preserved at all costs?
well thats it, no-one wants to go and plough there money into a non-viable business, people cant afford to go out drinking nowadays, times have changed.

you find most the people who moan about the pubs being converted/bulldozed, are the ones who dont actually go to a pub, or moan about noise when they are open!

funny how CAMRA never objected to the The Langlands in Malvern or the Drakes Drum in Dines Green.

the two sites that Tesco and housing bought....

worcester needs new houses/flats, out with the old and in with the new!
I agree that most people can't afford to go drinking now, but...
I'm not surprised that CAMRA didn't object to the Langlands/Drum closures.
Neither pub was renowned for the quality of it's ale. Or it's welcome to non regulars...

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Malaky says...
6:59pm Tue 23 Oct 12

Endconreignforever wrote:
Seems to me that you have all got it wrong. Alcohol blights our communities. It causes deaths and is the cause of many anti social behaviours especially fighting and brawls. No wonder CAMRA don't want this to happen. Big Business again trying to use it's muscle. Pubs are a thing of the past, beautiful places that they are sometimes, they no longer are part of our social makeup thankfully. I do think there are people that can enjoy just the social element and for them it is a shame but we are living in different times now and Pubs don't serve the community like the did in the past. Maybe if they had a coffee shop or community centre you could meet there and have your chats..Or maybe you can meet at the Perdiswell Sports centre instead and get fit!!
Get a life!

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Endconreignforever says...
8:24pm Tue 23 Oct 12

WJS1950 wrote:
Endconreignforever wrote:
Seems to me that you have all got it wrong. Alcohol blights our communities. It causes deaths and is the cause of many anti social behaviours especially fighting and brawls. No wonder CAMRA don't want this to happen. Big Business again trying to use it's muscle. Pubs are a thing of the past, beautiful places that they are sometimes, they no longer are part of our social makeup thankfully. I do think there are people that can enjoy just the social element and for them it is a shame but we are living in different times now and Pubs don't serve the community like the did in the past. Maybe if they had a coffee shop or community centre you could meet there and have your chats..Or maybe you can meet at the Perdiswell Sports centre instead and get fit!!
Ever thought that people actually like to drink alcohol now and in conjunction with the pub environment, which is unique, while many do drink responsibly. And perhaps even enjoy a coffee at other times of the day - shock horror, many pubs even sell tea, coffee, soft drinks, water! Perhaps cars should be banned too so that road casualties are eliminated.
Oh well ..i don't drink or smoke so Pub's are a waste of space in my opnion. The space can be used for something much better..Like some Flats!! yeh homes for families..Shame village folk are stuck in the old days...maybe get out vist a city, get some culture, drink a coffee see some art work..get a life!!

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BelieveinWorcester says...
11:22am Wed 24 Oct 12

Having you moved to Northwick and pleased to be close to the Northwick Arms, I am horrified that it has closed. I have read these comments with interest and as the comments by Realist Blue reflect so much the proposers application, I believe they are part of the development team! I am also fascinated by people like Endconreignforever who doesn't drink or smoke and therefore sees no relevance for anyone! However it is true that if no-one complains it will go ahead so if you live in the community and disagree with the proposal, it is really easy to leave a comment online against the application on the Council's website using the link in the article. Good luck!

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Hillbilly1 says...
4:18pm Thu 25 Oct 12

The days of a community supporting 5 or 6 pubs in a close vicinity are long gone, and wont ever be coming back. If pubs were so vital to the community, then how come they are no longer frequented by enough people to make them a viable proposition for the owner? Its simple business economics, there are too many pubs offering the same products and services to a dwindling client base. Some pubs are able to offer diversification, or consider new services, and gain a different client, but most still rely on beer and a darts team, and thats just no longer enough.
If good old fashioned pubs paid their way, you'd have entrepreneurs flocking to make it happen, unfortunately we've got Wetherspoons!

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More Tea Vicar says...
4:18pm Thu 25 Oct 12

Endconreignforever wrote:
Seems to me that you have all got it wrong. Alcohol blights our communities. It causes deaths and is the cause of many anti social behaviours especially fighting and brawls. No wonder CAMRA don't want this to happen. Big Business again trying to use it's muscle. Pubs are a thing of the past, beautiful places that they are sometimes, they no longer are part of our social makeup thankfully. I do think there are people that can enjoy just the social element and for them it is a shame but we are living in different times now and Pubs don't serve the community like the did in the past. Maybe if they had a coffee shop or community centre you could meet there and have your chats..Or maybe you can meet at the Perdiswell Sports centre instead and get fit!!
No offence, but I really beg to differ.

The UK is not the alcohol-crazed hell-hole the press likes to portray it as. Some people drink to much, and act like idiots.

The vast majority drink in moderation and in calm, family-type pubs.

Alcohol consumption is pretty central to European culture in general, and has been for a long time.

I'd even venture to suggest that our society and culture are all the better for it. Look around the world. All along the southern Med. coast over into the Mid East, there are plenty of societies where alcohol is forbidden.

Hasn't exactly created calm, orderly societies with a lifestyle we'd like to copy, has it?

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Hillbilly1 says...
4:25pm Thu 25 Oct 12

MrStJohns wrote:
Totally agree, pubs should be preserved at all costs they are, regardless of what developers may want councils to think, still places people meet and socialise. if the lack of meeting room is all that is preventing the Northwick being viable, who not use some of the car parking space to create a meeting/social space for the pub and bring it back into use as a community hub as it should be. Not a another mundane development of flats.
If pubs should be preserved at all costs, who is going to pay those costs?

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Endconreignforever says...
8:40pm Thu 25 Oct 12

More Tea Vicar says.."I'd even venture to suggest that our society and culture are all the better for it. Look around the world. All along the southern Med. coast over into the Mid East, there are plenty of societies where alcohol is forbidden.

Hasn't exactly created calm, orderly societies with a lifestyle we'd like to copy, has it?"

Sorry the Southern Med is full of English all drinking and making fools of themselves like in Spain..I'm descended from S.Med society is lovely and friendly not orderly like here but less idiots beating eachother up after a few drinks. More family orientated. S. Italy the people live the longest I wonder why!

Having travled around the world the impression the world has of UK is of drunken hooligans... of course not everyone is like this ..but Alcohol is the worst drug we currently have in society..I'm sorry but I imagine you'll find more pubs becoming flats in the future..They stay open with clients so obviously not enough clients were frequenting this local..Good buy to old rubbish!

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Vox populi says...
10:56pm Thu 25 Oct 12

It seems to me that when you could have been enjoying spending time in a social environment or having fun you were retaining your perceived higher level of intelligence and clean living in a coffee shop absorbing every word of the Daily Mail.

Of course due to this your opinion is obviously right! What you need to understand is the difference between selling papers and reality. The vast majority of our population enjoy a harmless drink without any issues.

Harmful drug? Really? Have an in depth look at the effects of caffeine, supply, demand, social, health etc but of course as you mention we all need new coffee shops don't we?!

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Vox populi says...
11:05pm Thu 25 Oct 12

Oh and as for perception by other nationalities... I don't claim to have travelled the world, that would be a gross over exaggeration much like your view on alcohol.

I have however visited 87 countries both in a professional capacity and for pleasure and never once has anyone mentioned such rubbish.

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Frank Gannett says...
10:36pm Fri 26 Oct 12

This is the way its going...homes over alcohol. How can we let this happen?

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