Discipline should start in the cradle (From Worcester News)
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Discipline should start in the cradle
8:00am Saturday 4th July 2009 in
SIR – John Phillpott is absolutely right, that Noddy-book theories on human behaviour have proved to be carefully cultivated clap when tried in practice! We need to go back to the drawing board.
I would submit that man is basically an animal, who only becomes civilised when subject to discipline, which should start in the cradle. Discipline means the control of each for the benefit of all.
Up until 1986 EU-ordered changes in common sense policies, in Worcestershire schools we had the slap in our first schools, slipper in our middle schools and the cane in our high schools – part of a well thought out code of discipline.
TOM WAREING,
Redditch.
Comments(35)
Common Sense
says...
8:15am Sat 4 Jul 09
Well said, Tom!
"Spare the rod and spoil the child" was not said for nothing!
It worked - and now abandonded, we are reaping....well..no benefits at all!
Paul Griffiths
says...
8:44am Sat 4 Jul 09
BarryB
says...
11:02am Sat 4 Jul 09
That is one of the many reasons why the cotton wool Lib Dems will never form a Government.
We have this idiotic thinking to thank for the clockwork orange society that we live in today, and still the likes of the Paul Griffiths and other Lib Dems pound out this soft anarchic twaddle.
Common Sense
says...
12:25pm Sat 4 Jul 09
Exactly, Barry - as soon as anybody says "discipline" they jump in, all guns blazing and screaming "abuse, cruelty, etc"!
Nobody, least of all me, is advocating you knock 7-bells out of the child!
I take it Mr.Griffiths has no children, or he wouldn't make such silly statements - but let me tell him that when a 12-24 month old is scuttling across the carpet, intent on sticking their fingers in a socket, a gentle smack works wonders - and may well save their life in the coming months!
Yes, they cry easily, but they also recover easily and very quickly forget the smack - but they do think twice about going near a plug again.
One does not need to swing them round by one arm, or the proverbial cat, to educate them, love and a sense of protection from the many regular dangers in our lives, usually does the trick.
We now have three grown-up daughters - and happily none were electrocuted!
Spare us from these "do-gooders"!
Paul Griffiths
says...
2:27pm Sat 4 Jul 09
BB: You make my argument for me. It is clear that when someone says the word “discipline” all you can think of is smacking, slippering and caning.
The only discipline worth having is self-discipline. And you don’t teach that by hitting people. All you teach by hitting people is that hitting people is a good way to make them to do what you want.
Common Sense
says...
3:08pm Sat 4 Jul 09
"...hitting people is a good way to make them to do what you want."
Well - it is, actually!
A well-tried and tested method,used for many thousands of years - by animals as well as humans.
..but what do I know? I am from the "old school" - all now discredited and discarded as "obsolete".
Yeah, well, see how far it's got you all, these days!
Illiteracy and vandalism in abundance.
Well done - do-gooders and the PC brigade!
BarryB
says...
5:12pm Sat 4 Jul 09
BB: You make my argument for me. It is clear that when someone says the word “discipline” all you can think of is smacking, slippering and caning.
Where on earth have I mentioned the words smack, slippering and caning. This is an absolutely typical comment from someone who has to support a position with irrational and untrue comments.
"Discipline" can take many forms and it is not merely physically correcting someone when they do wrong. eg., if we were to live an ordered, responsible and considerate existence then the need for "physical" measures would not be needed.
Unfortunately, the values and culture which induced people to live such a lifestyle have been eroded to the point of non existence by the liberal, irresponsible "do-gooders" who have brought this country to it's current state.
I think it safe to say Mr Griffiths that you have never known this country when "self discipline" was the norm and anti social behaviour was the exception.
I would welcome a lesson in how to induce the thugs, violent offenders and all the other social misfits to indulge in "self discipline". Please tell us because there are 80,000 people in our prisons, who, whatever brilliant lesson you come up with have had it tried on them time after time and it has lamentably failed
It is a very trite expression used by those who have no other solutions to the state of our society, yet they have no idea how to bring about "self discipline".
The age of the liberal do-gooders has run it's course, their social experiment has patently failed and the dilemna now facing our society is, how does society bring about discipline, self or imposed by people who themselves do not know the meaning of the word and have never experienced it.
The natural progression of course is the road to total anarchy and that is what you would have us in if we are foolish enough to continue this over liberalised charade.
Logik
says...
6:18pm Sat 4 Jul 09
I've brought up 4 children who are now respectful adults. Along the way we had comments of how well behaved they were, oh dear, if only they could have seen them at home but I suppose they had to let of steam somewhere. They were denied privileges along the way when naughty but when all else failed they had a smack - end of.
These days a good smack is the only thing these anti-social little oiks are likely to understand. The bleedin' heart liberal attitudes of our Liberal Paul and other do-gooders has resulted in the chaos, contempt and disrespect a fair few young people have today. Some of these kids who are a menace today will have parents who, when they were young, were allowed to run amok because of these do-gooders. We now have a situation where oiks have spawned more anti-social oiks and it is surely set to continue as they know no different.
Kids will always push their luck as far as they can in their bid for supremacy over you and you simply can't let them win. Boundaries have to be set and they have to learn right from wrong and what is expected from them in the wider world. They have to learn that their anti-social actions have consequences and things like ASBO's are useless, they just see this a badge of honour to boast about with their mates.
Real deterrents and real consequences is what's needed, not more bleeedin' heart liberal attitudes.
Paul Griffiths
says...
7:08pm Sat 4 Jul 09
BB: Read the original letter again. The one whose sentiments you seem to be supporting. Not much evidence there of discipline “taking many forms” is there? Slap, slipper and cane. Or is that what you mean by “many forms”? And stop trying to divert the argument onto the state of Britain’s prisons. Mr Wareing is clearly talking about childrearing, and so was I in my response.
Logik: “Boundaries have to be set and they have to learn right from wrong and what is expected from them in the wider world.” I agree totally. Where I disagree is your idea that hitting people is good way of achieving this aim. I am encouraged (slightly) when you say that “When all else fails a smack is the only thing really left open to you”. At least you admit that hitting people is a sign of failure. Barry seems much more of an enthusiast.
Finally, I reject completely the ridiculously dystopian assumptions that underlie both the letter and your comments. Anyone would think we were living in a post-apocalyptic nightmare. I can imagine worse societies much than our own – like the one implied by Mr Wareing when he says “Discipline means the control of each for the benefit of all.” Discipline? Sounds like totalitarianism to me.
Logik
says...
8:38pm Sat 4 Jul 09
I don't believe that I admitted any such thing Paul. I have brought up 4 kids that anyone could be proud of so I don't think I have failed in any way whatsoever. I merely used all the tools available to me.
We are all different and indeed what one may respond to another may not.
Not quite the perfect example but my daughter being the youngest suffered a fair bit of bullying from boys at secondary school in a year higher to her.
The school tried everything in their powers to stop 2 particular lads picking on her but with no success. Words therefore failed.
One day when coming home from school one of these lads gave her a shove from behind again. She was so fed up with all this that she turned round and thumped him one. The other lad found this highly amusing and started to laugh so she thumped him one as well.
Never again did they pick on her and the problem with these two was finally resolved. It does seem somewhat clear therefore that for some, this is the only type of language they are likely to understand.
If smacking is the only option left that is likely to prevent kids turning out to be violent anti-social yobs and criminals then so be it I say.
This whole approach worked with me as a child and has worked for me as a parent - what more can you say.
Paul Griffiths
says...
9:13pm Sat 4 Jul 09
I doubt it. What probably happened is that they just picked on someone else.
Once again: If you want to get someone to change their behaviour then inflicting pain is a pretty effective way of doing it. Just don’t try to tell me that it has anything to do with teaching discipline.
So I don’t believe for a moment that your kids turned out OK because you hit them occasionally. I think they turned out OK despite the fact that you hit them occasionally.
Common Sense
says...
10:50pm Sat 4 Jul 09
I reckon you must be a teacher, Paul - right? If not now, then before.
I'm 100% with Logik and Barry - in fact, I can echo Logik's experience with bullies, but not over my own three daughters, but myself - at school in 1946. One lad consistently picked on me, while others looked on and laughed - I got so mad one day, I went over and smacked him one, very much to my own surprise!
It suddenly all went very quiet and I never had another squeak out of him -or anybody else!
Again, my own three daughters have all been praised for their politeness when very young and we wondered who they were talking about! At home is a diferent amtter, but out, they seem to have been quite well-behaved.
Job done! Three girls now all in responsible jobs and two proud parents.
You can practice your "no-smack" theory if you wish, but I think you will find the end product is rubbish.
(Now Paul will tell me his son is a Judge! If so, I rest my case!)
Logik
says...
11:08pm Sat 4 Jul 09
I doubt it. What probably happened is that they just picked on someone else."
Maybe, maybe not Paul, but hopefully if so someone else had the courage to stand up to them as well.
Chambers 21st Century dictionary says:
discipline /'dNsNplNn/
noun
1
a strict training, or the enforcing of rules, intended to produce ordered and controlled behaviour in oneself or others;
b the ordered behaviour resulting from this.
2 punishment designed to create obedience.
Basically therefore parents are the trainers and discipline in its many forms are part of that training.
Paul - all are born into this world the same, we have a blank canvas. It is what we do with this blank canvas that will determine how they will eventually turn out.
One of my boys went to school with a lad in the infants school who even at that time was a little wotsit, quite violent himself and always in trouble. What happened, well just about everybody made excuses for his behaviour at the time including the school and the parents. He was allowed to do what he wanted without consequence.
This lad will now be in his early twenties and already has a string of serious convictions behind him including rape and arson.
Why do two people turn out so differently? It can only be down to discipline and such discipline needs to be done from the point that they have an understanding of their actions.
I believe I did my best and given my time over again I would do exactly the same whatever anyone thinks. My kids would also tell you that they don't have any complaints.
Anyway Paul, at least for once we are having a more sensible debate.
Logik
says...
11:20pm Sat 4 Jul 09
"One lad consistently picked on me, while others looked on and laughed - I got so mad one day, I went over and smacked him one, very much to my own surprise!
It suddenly all went very quiet and I never had another squeak out of him -or anybody else!
Similar experience myself here CS - sometimes it is the only language available.
Perhaps if they had a sample of what they dished out at an earlier age it wouldn't come to this.
Common Sense
says...
9:14am Sun 5 Jul 09
Interesting, Logik - I think that proves our case for the Defence!
When Paul says "learn self-discipline" he's right, BUT this only comes as you grow older, 6-12 year-olds and you can't put an old head on young shoulders. Until then, it is our bounden duty as parents to "protect and guide" our children through their early years.
This we mostly all do, but the do-gooders really threw a spanner in the works when they managed to introduce "Nil Discipline" in schools.
The kids immediately picked up on it and it has gone downhill ever since! Also the fact that they can get teachers sacked merely by making an accusation!
The shift of elementary control to the youth in society, has gone too far the wrong way - towards the child.
You are totally right, Logik when you say "kids push the boundaries as far as they can" - and this is a good thing and shows a healthy, inquisitive child, but they cannot be allowed to rule the roost. Meanwhile, during their "formative years", we must guide, control and educate them. Their turn will come.
Finally, self discipline comes when alone, you touch a hot stove and burn yourself - lesson learnt, but the hard way - self discipline follows.
I don't have a problem with telling a child "don't touch that, it's hot and will hurt you" and I feel it's my duty of care as a parent to do so.
Human society is based on respect and orderly control. If you allow lack of control, things go wrong....just look at the present government - some "self-discipline" missing there, I think!
Karl Hunderson
says...
11:43am Sun 5 Jul 09
BarryB
says...
4:13pm Sun 5 Jul 09
For the second time I am alleged to have said things that I never have done, that I have done things that I never have and that I am an enthusiast for things when I am not.
I ask again, where in anything I have said do I mention the words, slap, smack, slipper, cane, hitting etc. Nowhere at all, this is in what appears to be the fevered imagination of Mr Griffiths when he is trying to justify an untenable argument. Where have I diverted off into the state of Britain's Prisons, nowhere at all, what I did, was use the size and nature of the prison population to demonstrate the futility of the asserted solution of "self discipline" on our wayward people, young, old or whatever. Then I am supposed to be an enthusiast for "hitting people". This presumably is meant as an insult but I don't view it like that, I view it as a futile gasp from someone who is losing an argument.
After having brought up two children to responsible "professionally" employed adulthood after never in their lifetime, having had to raise my voice or my hand and neither has their mother, frankly Mr Griffiths you have no idea what you are talking about if this is the tenor of your case.
You wrongly assume that "discipline" is the automatic infliction of physical chastisement for wrongdoing.This I put down to your position of knowing nothing about it.
Whether you like it or not, whether you know what it is or not, whether you are capable of imposing it or inducing it or not, except for those in our midst who reject the norms of society, each and everyone of us are disciplined in some way. Discipline is all around us and part of our psyche and the majority of us conform for the greater good.
Clearly Mr Griffiths does not have his feet on the ground so I do not intend to become involved in idiotic comments but don't categorise me Mr Griffiths, I fall into none of your little boxes which you would categorise the whole of society in. Neither do i believe one asserted and failed solution is correct for all members of society. We are all different, require different motivations and corrections, no one solution fits us all.
When you have seen outside your pink cotton wool coccoon and see how society in some of it's worst forms really exist then, I hazard a guess, the rose tinted specs will come off and you will view life as it is not as you think it is.
Discipline starts when we are youngsters and in this regard anybody who say's differently is in cloud cuckoo land, it shapes our futures and makes us what we are when we are adults, hence the prison comment Mr Griffiths.
The Liberal Democrat solution to all of our countries social ills, is "SELF DISCIPLINE", the only snag is - when I ask one how one brings about "social self discipline" they are unable to say and go off into woolly ramblings.
So, I will ask again, how does society, a family or a group induce "self discipline" on an individual who lacks it and rejects it. Over to you the "do gooders" and bleeding heart LIBERALS.
Logik
says...
4:23pm Sun 5 Jul 09
Karl Hunderson wrote:You sound like a woolly do-gooder Liberal Karl.
The second paragraph of Mr Wareing's letter reads like an extract from Mein Kampf. Shameful.
Without discipline we would be little more than savages. Without order we have disorder.
Karl Hunderson
says...
5:09pm Sun 5 Jul 09
Logik wrote:Thanks for the compliment. You sound like a Nazi.
Karl Hunderson wrote: The second paragraph of Mr Wareing's letter reads like an extract from Mein Kampf. Shameful.You sound like a woolly do-gooder Liberal Karl. Without discipline we would be little more than savages. Without order we have disorder.
Logik
says...
6:57pm Sun 5 Jul 09
Karl Hunderson wrote:That is an wholly unnecessary insult Karl.
Logik wrote:Thanks for the compliment. You sound like a Nazi.
Karl Hunderson wrote: The second paragraph of Mr Wareing's letter reads like an extract from Mein Kampf. Shameful.You sound like a woolly do-gooder Liberal Karl. Without discipline we would be little more than savages. Without order we have disorder.
I do however forgive you Karl for your ignorance and childishness, you obviously haven't grown up yet.
Common Sense
says...
7:00pm Sun 5 Jul 09
I will say one thing - this paper and these Comments certainly sorts the wheat from the chaff and the liberal theorists from the real world.
Some people do over-react so! The liberal do-gooders have been and still are, the real menace in our so-called (now nearly deceased!) civilised society - but nobody here, that I know of, is a true Nazi per se and we all know that, so the word is being used in a derogatory manner.
So, can we now assume that anybody who smacks a child is a Nazi?
Wow! No wonder there are so many unsmacked yobs and tearaways about!
Pres. Obama was voted in on one word - Change. Perhaps it's time we did, also?
Karl Hunderson
says...
8:46pm Sun 5 Jul 09
Logik
says...
10:56pm Sun 5 Jul 09
Karl Hunderson wrote:Isn't it amazing that all you have contributed to this debate Karl is to call people Nazi's. How very constructive and grown up of you.
Isn't it odd how the Knee-Jerk Reactionary brigade like to dish out insults (although I don't see what is wrong with doing good) but cry foul when their drivel is criticised.
hotfuzz
says...
12:23pm Mon 6 Jul 09
BarryB
says...
3:14pm Mon 6 Jul 09
I bet there will be a resounding silence or a load of nonsense, waffling around the subject.
Bauer24
says...
9:09pm Mon 6 Jul 09
Personally, I think I wouldn't hit my own children (when I have them) but I am not against a parent deciding when an appropriate smack on the hand/bum is required if the situation calls for it.
I know that when I was a child, and I did something really naughty, the punishment was appropriate to the crime. For example, when I was sent home for throwing a chair at a another child (I was 8), I got a very hard slap for it (Not hard enough to bruise, but enough to know I've done wrong). As I got older, the punishments changed. I remember having to clean the whole house, and I mean clean - wiping down every window sill, skirting board, moving every bed and hoovering under it. Took about 4 hours but I got the message!
Have I turned out to be maladjusted or out of control? I don't think so. I have been to uni, have worked in respectable jobs for the last 7 years and am now training to be a teacher. I think that I am extremely well disciplined and I think that my little slaps benefited me in the long run.
Imagine how I would have turned out if nothing happened when I threw the chair and I grew up thinking it was acceptable?
However, I do believe that cases like Victoria Climbe, Baby P etc have led to people believing that the slightest use of discipline amounts to child cruelty.
There is however a massive difference between an appropriate smack and beating a child.
Unfortunately, I believe this is just a by product of our media obsessed society, and does not accurately reflect how incredibly rare these cases are (this is not justifying it by any means).
As a teacher (in training) I am completely commmitted to child safety and welfare, but I do believe that it is up to parents to decide how best to discipline their children. Like I mentioned at the start, I personally would not smack a child under any circumstances and I would contact the appropriate authority if I had any suspicion that a child was being abused.
I do believe that this will be an emotive subject in any circumstances, but adults should have the right to discipline their children in the manner that they see fit.
Common Sense
says...
10:52pm Mon 6 Jul 09
In this very long-running blog, I said at the beginning that "nobody, least of all me, is advocating knocking 7-bells out the child" and I stand by that. Only verbal and light "manual guidance".
Permit me a wry smile when I read this comment by Bauer24 saying "I will not hit my children, when I have them".
Good luck, sir!
Many before have said this, but children ALWAYS wrong foot you. Come the situation, where tolerance is stretched to it's absolute limit and verbal instructions continue to be ignored (as they always do), the child usually continues on regardless.
That is the point where you have to decide who is the boss, the child, or you. Most of us have been there - myself 3 times with 3 daughters - we all survived, peace reigned and they have not been to prison or been arrested. (To my knowledge!) All have good jobs.
Talking to a baby or infant does not always cut the mustard - as you will discover! It's a trial of wills - and with a healthy child it should be.
However, your own inward love of the child should help you make the right decision at the time, whether to praise, castigate or beat it to a pulp!
(You will feel like that at times, trust me - but please resist it! There is usually a simple reason for perpetual crying - mainly too weak a food mix and their still hungry.)
I admire you taking up teaching, as that is dealing the children of others - a wholly new world and huge and hazardous area.
Due to the total lack of discipline in schools these days, I don't envy you, but we still need teachers and may I sincerely wish you guidance from above in your chosen vocation.
Bauer24
says...
8:52am Tue 7 Jul 09
I'm sure all non-parents have the same intentions!!!
Thanks for the words of encouragement(?!) regarding my new profession. I'm well aware of the discipline issues that schools face at the moment, but from my experience of schools so far, not all children are ill-disciplined, and there are many tools that schools can use to maintain order and discipline.
With the correct approach, I've seen teachers have the attention of a whole class of lower ability year 8 boys (who are renowned for being naughty)with little or no disruption for a whole hours Maths lesson.
Some may argue that hitting a child is an easy way out, but I do think the choice should be the parents. As a teacher, I will need to use my head in order to manage and influence behaviour.
Logik
says...
2:09pm Tue 7 Jul 09
8:52am Tue 7 Jul 09
Common Sense - your wry smile is permitted!
I'm sure all non-parents have the same intentions!!!
Indeed they do, in fact I'm experiencing some form of deja vu.
When we first got married and moved in to our house the couple next door had two quite young boys. We could hear the screams of chastisement through the walls on many occasions and used to have a good chuckle to ourselves about it. Indeed we swore that we wouldn't ever do that nor did we foresee any need that we would ever have to do so. How very very wrong we were.
Kids can try your patience until you are little more than a blithering wreck for various reasons. In the end you have to use the self discipline you taught yourself that is usually based upon the discipline instilled on you when you were young. Unfortunately, those who go too far are usually those who were subjected to beatings when they were young. This however is no excuse and this is where your own self discipline and sense of right and wrong comes to the fore.
BarryB
says...
2:49pm Tue 7 Jul 09
Bauer24, you are embarking on one of the most noble of professions. You will do it generally, without thanks or praise, you will be severely criticised when all the failings of modern children and youth are placed on your shoulders, you will be the one that, despite your total commitment and best efforts, has to be at the receiving end of abuse and complaints when the biggest duffer in the school has disappointed his parents by failing his exams. The failings of parents will be your direct responsibility and you will be required to shoulder this without complaint and with a miserly salary against a background of continual change, alterations to policy and an "Inspection and Monitoring" regime that no other profession would tolerate. Many days, you will go home, utterly drained only to have much more work in front of you and, when your Union reps argue for better conditions and better salary, you will have the long holiday excuse thrown at you to justify treating you as something little better than a junior clerk without a qualification to your name.
For all this, if you can stick it out which increasingly, many are not able to do, you will be able to have an inner pride in doing a job that few others, mainly the critics could not possibly do, you will see the success of your labours when deserving pupils pass exams to set them on the right road to adulthood. You will have the respect of intelligent and socially aware parents and similar in society generally.
Already you appear to have what many would say is the right approach, discipline does not automatically involve physical punishment, neither is the "blanket" solution of "self discipline" the panacea for all cases of indiscipline. All pupils are different, all respond differently and each should be dealt with as the merits of the individual and the circumstances dictate. The greatest "disciplinary tool" in the teachers brief case is his/her own "example", ability, knowledge, dignity and approachability
As you say, there are many tools in the School armoury when it comes to indiscipline and many, myself included would argue that some of these need toughening up because they restrict a teachers and Head's options.
My son argues that in the main, the majority of pupils irrespective of the area, go to school to learn and those who go to disrupt or behave like hooligans are in the minority.
I was severely caned on a number of occasions in school for even minor breaches of discipline but a wholly different culture and ethos was the order of the day in those years. It did me no harm whatever but times have changed. I just hope that some of the laissez faire and anarchic comments and approaches of some of the bloggers on this stream are halted because if they are not, then I personally shudder for our future.
Common Sense
says...
5:47pm Tue 7 Jul 09
Totally agree, Barry!
Well and accurately explained - I have had several teachers among my relations and your comments ring many bells.
Teaching is a calling, on a par with the Ministry.
(I trust I am not among those you mention in your final sentence?)
This has turned out to be an interesting discussion and the subject strikes right through to the core of the human reactor - especially as many have revealed personal histories of their youth, me included.
Not all would wish to do that, but I felt it was "in a good cause"!
..and the Security Words are "hope-trip" - how very apt!
BarryB
says...
7:38pm Tue 7 Jul 09
The real culprits who should wear the cap, because it will certainly fit, are those who have the arrogance to think that they know better than anyone else and still peddle the false and failed philosophies that have served this country so badly. We have those to thank for what someone once described as "the increasingly feral youth" on our streets. Never a truer statement.
Common Sense
says...
11:29pm Tue 7 Jul 09
Thank you, Barry. Again, I totally agree with all your comments.
I saw it all begin, in mid-60s and we said then it was the "do-good" brigade and would only lead to trouble.
Well, now we have it - by the bucket-load!
Do the do-gooders have a solution I wonder? Or are they like Gordon Brown and just continue the mantra of "more of the same" is good for you?
It would be easy to despair, these days. Trouble is, I'm old and getting weary now - and out-numbered!
hotfuzz
says...
11:46pm Tue 7 Jul 09
12:23pm Mon 6 Jul 09
Paul Griffiths - You criticise everyone else - but seemingly don't dare to offer your solution to the problem of disciplining."
So Paul Griffiths - we're still waiting!!!!
chrisnewmanuk
says...
8:55am Wed 8 Jul 09
It's a worthwhile read.
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