There are two key facts about hunting (From Worcester News)
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There are two key facts about hunting
1:40pm Friday 17th June 2011 in Read
SIR – In her latest correspondence on the subject of hunting (Worcester News, June 14) Geraldine Engel has apparently decided to deny all of the accepted science and facts about hunting.
Ms Engel has also turned her attention to branding all those who go hunting as uncivilised.
Taking this concept to its logical conclusion, Adolf Hitler could have claimed to be ‘compassionate’ and ‘civilised’ because he banned hunting in Germany.
While Sir Winston Churchill might be looked on as uncivilised as he actually went hunting.
Unfortunately, Ms Engel has yet to grasp two important facts about hunting.
The first is that the fox is a pest and its numbers will continue to be controlled by all legal methods available.
Secondly, hunting with hounds is the most humane method of accomplishing the necessary control of the fox population.
Ms Engel may see hunting as an uncivilised sport rather than pest control.
The fox, however, does not worry about this. His only concern is avoiding his one natural predator, the foxhound. One predator keeping another under control, as Ms Engel rightly points out.
JON BURGESS
Worcester
Comments(19)
economist
says...
2:55pm Fri 17 Jun 11
Surveys consistently show that the vast majority of the population are against fox hunting, including the majority of the rural population.
economist
says...
4:07pm Fri 17 Jun 11
New Kid on the Block
says...
9:38pm Fri 17 Jun 11
Wolves are natural predators; so it is entirely correct to say that the foxhound is descended from a natural predator that became extinct in the UK in the late 1700s.
economist
says...
8:11am Sat 18 Jun 11
Of course if we use the logic of New Kid on the Block we would arrive at the conclusion that Chihauhau dogs are natural predators of foxes - so perhaps foxhunters should take out a pack of Chihauhau's with them - I mean it would all be natural wouldn't it?
pudniw_gib
says...
11:13am Sat 18 Jun 11
Foxes are occasionally a pest, but most of the time they are not in any way a problem, hunting is an excuse for some blood thirsty primitives to get their fix.
Hopefully these poor simpletons will die out soon.
sharpy
says...
10:47pm Sun 19 Jun 11
heil pudniw_gib.
Maggie Would
says...
8:33am Mon 20 Jun 11
sharpy wrote:That is really quite offensive. Pudniw was rude to you, but it didn't wrrant such an extreme response.
Pudniw_gib - your post is the sound of jack boots marching and Hitler screaming "blood thirsty primatives" and "these poor simpletons will die out"...
heil pudniw_gib.
New Kid on the Block
says...
6:29pm Mon 20 Jun 11
Perhaps a Chihuahua pack could be used to hunt mice. Under current law I believe this would be legal even if not practical.
You repeat the claim that the vast majority of people in the UK are against hunting. John Burgess has repeatedly asked for details of the independent survey that shows this to be the case. Perhaps you could be the one to enlighten him as so far no-one else has done so.
It has also been suggested several times on these pages that a lurcher should be used in order to catch a fox quickly with as short a chase as possible. The generally accepted definition of a lurcher appears to be sighthound (e.g. greyhound) cross; usually with a collie or terrier. Other breeds are sometimes added to this mix to add desired characteristics. E.g. bull breeds to add strength. So following this definition a foxhound is a type of lurcher, heavier and stronger than many but still a lurcher.
economist
says...
7:10am Tue 21 Jun 11
Jon does keep asking for details of surveys that evidence that the majority of the public are against fox hunting and I have repeatedly posted the details including the 2008 survey carried out by IPSOS MORI that found that 72% of the public want fox hunting to be illegal.
Note that Jon is unable to provide any empirical evidence to the contrary - and he can't do that because the evidence consistently shows that the vast majority of the public are against fox hunting.
Good to see that Bull fighting is fast on its way out as well.
Nothing you have said or identified about fox hounds makes them a natural predator of foxes, and nothing you have said disproves any of the points I have made.
pinkfluff
says...
12:39pm Tue 21 Jun 11
New Kid on the Block
says...
7:54pm Tue 21 Jun 11
If it is so unnatural for dogs to chase foxes why do so many of them do it without any form of encouragement?
A poll commisioned by LACS and run by a company headed by a man known to have strong views on the subject is not what I would call independent.
If you read the actual questions asked it is obvious that they were designed to achieve a given result.
For example http://www.ipsos-mor
i.com/Assets/Docs/Pu
blications/sri_publi
c-opinion-on-hunting
-topline_tables_%20d
ec2010.pdf
economist
says...
8:27am Wed 22 Jun 11
The answer, is of course that you can't. Fox Hounds are not a natural predator of the fox - never have been and never will be.
IPSOS-MORI, whether you like it or not is an independent survey company that is absolutely reliant on its reputation for running objective surveys. In the survey that we are discussing the participants could very clearly indicate whether they were for or against fox hunting. Unfortunately for the the small minority that are into animal cruelty/sadistic blood sports, the results show that the vast majority, 72%, of the public are against fox hunting and want it to be banned and against the law.
But there we go - the fox hunting brigade always ignore the objective facts and have a poor grasp of logic.
New Kid on the Block
says...
12:42pm Wed 22 Jun 11
I have never claimed that foxhounds were once running wild in England. They are however descended from wolves which once did. This may well account for the innate desire of many dogs to naturally hunt foxes.
The link that I gave to the Mori website clearly shows a leading question designed to produce a given result. Do you honestly believe that phrasing the question in the manner shown will not affect the answers given?
economist
says...
1:40pm Wed 22 Jun 11
You have gone back to your (false) logic that leads to chihauhau's - they are equally descended from wolves.
Foxhounds are not natural predators of foxes.
Dogs, including foxhounds do not hunt foxes.
If a foxhound became a stray and had never been part of a foxhound hunting pack it would not hunt foxes. Foxhounds were not given their name of 'foxhound' because of any natural instinct for hunting foxes but rather because it was used for the purpose of hunting foxes.
If a foxhound became a stray it would not hunt foxes because it would be a highly inefficient way of trying to survive. Like other stray dogs it would - assuming it did not have access to food waste thrown out on refuse collection days - try to survive on rabbits, mice, birds, etc. all of which would require far less physical energy to catch. Running miles to catch a fox would rapidly lead to starvation.
The foxhound, like most stray dogs would, due to not being a natural wild animal, struggle to survive - and thats why a very high percentage of stray dogs die of starvation, or are found with their ribs sticking out, etc.
Fox hounds are not a natural predator of foxes - never have been and never will be.
Also, you were wrong to say that fox hounds naturally chase foxes without encouragement. They are trained to follow the scent of a fox and at the start of the hunt are whipped up into a high state of excitement by fox hunt workers using the scent of foxes & blood to get them to start looking for and tracking that particular scent.
Next you will be telling us that Mountain Rescue Dogs are naturally 'mountain rescue dogs' and that packs of 'mountain rescue dogs' used to roam the UK and other countries naturally seeking out lost and injured humans on mountain sides. Its true you know - they are natural mountain rescuers.
By the way - you still haven't provided the evidence that shows that Fox Hounds came into existence through natural selection and evolution - nor that they used to exist in the wild as part of the UK's natural wildlife as hunters of foxes.
You've lost the debate New Kid on the Block
economist
says...
1:49pm Wed 22 Jun 11
economist
says...
3:32pm Wed 22 Jun 11
The facts just don't support the Fox Hunters and their supporters.
New Kid on the Block
says...
7:15pm Wed 22 Jun 11
You don't answer my questions.
You introduce spurious claims.
You make claims that are totaly incorrect.
So I have decided that I shall move on and allow you continue in your deluded views.
Time to stop feeding the troll.
Vox populi
says...
11:54pm Wed 22 Jun 11
I really don't care about whether foxes are hunted or not, there are more important matters in life. Each to their own and their own opinions.
All it has ever served to show is the closed minds on each side of it.
economist
says...
8:07am Thu 23 Jun 11
Its a great shame that you always resort to name calling (and this, as said by others on this website, is exactly why fewer & fewer people are using the interactive elements of the WN website) - my comments have been directly on topic and relevant.
Can you of Jon Burgess provide evidence that the vast majority of the public support fox hunting? - the answer is no. Can anti-fox hunting people provide empirical, verfiable evidence that the vast majority of the public are against fox hunting? - the answer is yes. You and Jon Burgess tried to argue that fox hounds are natural predators of foxes - I have provided the evidence that they are not.
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